Real Shamshir or Kilij?

FED · 5th July 2007, 03:33 PM

Hi all, they offered me this sword. I couldn't find any markings anywhere. I'd appreciate any insight or advice.
Thank you!

Jim McDougall · 7th July 2007, 07:58 PM

Hi FED,
It would appear this is an Ottoman hilt mounted with a European cavalry sabre blade, probably 18th century, though the hilt and scabbard probably furbished sometime in the mid 19th. It is always hard to be precise as these hilts were so widely distributed within the Ottoman sphere, and the form remained traditionally firm so such a long period. With so many blades coming out of Germany, and being used on so many military sabres throughout Europe, it is equally hard to be precise with the blade. The unusually pronounced parabolic curve and type of fuller does suggest mid to late 18th century though. It seems quite possible this sabre may have been assembled during periods of alliances between Ottoman and European forces in the 19th century.

Looks to be an interesting piece! The term 'kilij' or 'kilic' is a Turkish term for curved sword as I understand, and seems applied primarily to the shorter, heavier blade sabre with extremely pronounced yelman and of course the 'Ottoman' hilt of pistol grip form. The shamshir term usually refers to the swept curve Persian blade form without yelman, and typically associated to the simple, yet beautiful, open hilts of the Persian form.

All best regards,
Jim

ariel · 7th July 2007, 09:44 PM

Kilic in Turkish is just that: a sword. Just like Sayf in Arabic.
A sword with a bulbous handle and shamshir blade is a Turkish sword locally called Adjem Kilic ( "Persian sword") and with an undulating (kris-like) blade it becomes Atesh Kilic ( "Flaming sword"). It is still a mystery to me how the Westerners ( collectors, mainly) specified that Kilic (Kilij) should be a proper name for a yelman-ed variety.
Shorter and stubbier version of a yelman-ed Turkish sword was a Pala.
Am I wrong? Erlikhan, to the rescue!!!

erlikhan · 9th July 2007, 12:54 AM

Well, here is how i describe yelmaned swords (kilij as called in international terminology) : if it is long, i call it a " long pala", and if short, i call it a "short pala"

So do other local collectioners/dealers. Sword = Kilich. Yelmaned sword=Pala.

Perhaps they (long,short,stubbier etc.) were more spesifically named once in history when they were functional, but I don't know them for sure.

Kayahan · 9th July 2007, 02:19 PM

First, the term “yalman” is used wrongly by todays Westerners, as Ariel called them. "Yalman" in Turkish means the cutting or penetrating part of a cutting or penetrating weapon. Hence, for example, lances also have "yalman"s. To put it correctly, we can say “kilics have a double-edged yalman”. Similarly, shamshirs have a single-edged yalman. There is no specific word in Turkish language addressing the false edge (?) of a kilic.

It seems that the reason why Westerners specified that kilic should be a proper name for this variety was because it is how it was called in its original culture. It is true that kilic literally means sword in Turkish. So, they simply called what they originally use a “sword”. After they met to different types, they named them accordingly; with a reference either to its shape (“flaming sword”) or to its origin (persian sword).

(One related note: Historical accounts talk about the "yatagan bicagi (= yatagan knife)"; it is not just "yatagan" as we use it today. The same thing we see here: It is a variety of knife, and had its proper name either from its shape ("laid down") or from its origin (the village of Yatagan). Another inference of this note: Yatagan is a knife, not a sword!

)

Erlikhan, with all my respect, Ariel is right here: A “pala” is a shorter and wider (= stubbier) version of a “kilic”. It generally has an iron T-spine in the back. There is no “long” or “short” pala; I regret to say that but the local collectors and dealers are lacking of the necessary knowledge.

erlikhan · 9th July 2007, 03:55 PM

Odevan,what would you call this 110 cms long sword for example if you need to describe it to a customer or friend on phone? A "very long sword with double yelmans"? I would describe just a "very long pala" . And really so would do many other people I know. Yes, stubber ones match better to the image the word "pala" creates in mind, but unfortunately it is still the easiest definition to describe the longer ones as well. (Pls note, many local dealers even don't know what "yelman or yalman" means ) Anybody who has visited covered bazar can understand their -average- cultural and professional knowledge level when the subject is edged weapons (some must be noted as exception of course).

5th July 2007, 03:33 PM	#1
FED Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3	Real Shamshir or Kilij? Hi all, they offered me this sword. I couldn't find any markings anywhere. I'd appreciate any insight or advice. Thank you! Attached Images

9th July 2007, 12:54 AM	#4
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Well, here is how i describe yelmaned swords (kilij as called in international terminology) : if it is long, i call it a " long pala", and if short, i call it a "short pala" So do other local collectioners/dealers. Sword = Kilich. Yelmaned sword=Pala. Perhaps they (long,short,stubbier etc.) were more spesifically named once in history when they were functional, but I don't know them for sure. Last edited by erlikhan; 9th July 2007 at 09:23 AM.

9th July 2007, 02:19 PM	#5
Kayahan Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8	First, the term “yalman” is used wrongly by todays Westerners, as Ariel called them. "Yalman" in Turkish means the cutting or penetrating part of a cutting or penetrating weapon. Hence, for example, lances also have "yalman"s. To put it correctly, we can say “kilics have a double-edged yalman”. Similarly, shamshirs have a single-edged yalman. There is no specific word in Turkish language addressing the false edge (?) of a kilic. It seems that the reason why Westerners specified that kilic should be a proper name for this variety was because it is how it was called in its original culture. It is true that kilic literally means sword in Turkish. So, they simply called what they originally use a “sword”. After they met to different types, they named them accordingly; with a reference either to its shape (“flaming sword”) or to its origin (persian sword). (One related note: Historical accounts talk about the "yatagan bicagi (= yatagan knife)"; it is not just "yatagan" as we use it today. The same thing we see here: It is a variety of knife, and had its proper name either from its shape ("laid down") or from its origin (the village of Yatagan). Another inference of this note: Yatagan is a knife, not a sword! ) Erlikhan, with all my respect, Ariel is right here: A “pala” is a shorter and wider (= stubbier) version of a “kilic”. It generally has an iron T-spine in the back. There is no “long” or “short” pala; I regret to say that but the local collectors and dealers are lacking of the necessary knowledge. Last edited by Odevan; 9th July 2007 at 02:29 PM.

9th July 2007, 03:55 PM	#6
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Odevan,what would you call this 110 cms long sword for example if you need to describe it to a customer or friend on phone? A "very long sword with double yelmans"? I would describe just a "very long pala" . And really so would do many other people I know. Yes, stubber ones match better to the image the word "pala" creates in mind, but unfortunately it is still the easiest definition to describe the longer ones as well. (Pls note, many local dealers even don't know what "yelman or yalman" means ) Anybody who has visited covered bazar can understand their -average- cultural and professional knowledge level when the subject is edged weapons (some must be noted as exception of course). Attached Images Last edited by erlikhan; 9th July 2007 at 09:31 PM.

7th July 2007, 07:58 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	Hi FED, It would appear this is an Ottoman hilt mounted with a European cavalry sabre blade, probably 18th century, though the hilt and scabbard probably furbished sometime in the mid 19th. It is always hard to be precise as these hilts were so widely distributed within the Ottoman sphere, and the form remained traditionally firm so such a long period. With so many blades coming out of Germany, and being used on so many military sabres throughout Europe, it is equally hard to be precise with the blade. The unusually pronounced parabolic curve and type of fuller does suggest mid to late 18th century though. It seems quite possible this sabre may have been assembled during periods of alliances between Ottoman and European forces in the 19th century. Looks to be an interesting piece! The term 'kilij' or 'kilic' is a Turkish term for curved sword as I understand, and seems applied primarily to the shorter, heavier blade sabre with extremely pronounced yelman and of course the 'Ottoman' hilt of pistol grip form. The shamshir term usually refers to the swept curve Persian blade form without yelman, and typically associated to the simple, yet beautiful, open hilts of the Persian form. All best regards, Jim

7th July 2007, 09:44 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kilic in Turkish is just that: a sword. Just like Sayf in Arabic. A sword with a bulbous handle and shamshir blade is a Turkish sword locally called Adjem Kilic ( "Persian sword") and with an undulating (kris-like) blade it becomes Atesh Kilic ( "Flaming sword"). It is still a mystery to me how the Westerners ( collectors, mainly) specified that Kilic (Kilij) should be a proper name for a yelman-ed variety. Shorter and stubbier version of a yelman-ed Turkish sword was a Pala. Am I wrong? Erlikhan, to the rescue!!!