Hirshfanger bayonet

Ron Anderson · 7th September 2010, 01:38 AM

Here is another item in my collection with a fair degree of mystery associated with it.

I believe this is a hirshfanger bayonet. That is about all I know and I assume that this item hails from one of the German states in the 19th century, or from another Northern European country (Scandinavian?).

It has an interesting canvas covering to the scabbard, and a matching frog. This is old and dirty. It has layers of age to it and looks to me like the covering was created to protect the scabbard while out in the rain or the woods. Underneath the canvas covering is the scabbard. One can actually feel the mouth and chape and the leather of the scabbard and I can only surmise that having been protected for so long by the canvas it is in excellent, possibly mint, condition.

The spring on the locking mechanism appears to be missing. Otherwise, with the exception of small nicks on the blade, this bayonet is in extremely nice order.

I'm going to guess this item was used for hunting, and is not military. But are these not by nature military?

There is one marking on the blade, pictured here.

This seems to be rare and recently an item like this, without a scabbard, sold on eBay for an awful lot more than I paid.

Does anybody here have a better idea about this particular "hirshfanger bayonet". ie Does anybody know the pattern, origins, etc?

Also, it's a great opportunity for someone to expand on how these interesting sidearms developed. I for one would be very interested to know.

Regards
Ron

Ron Anderson · 8th September 2010, 04:26 AM

No comments?

I'd be surprised if no-one here has ever seen this sword-bayonet.

Yes, it is scarce but with the collective experience in this forum surely someone's got some idea of what it is.

The only clue I can offer is that I saw the exact piece for sale without a scabbard on Ebay - and it sold for a whopping sum. And sadly the seller had no idea what it was other than that it was a hirshfanger bayonet. This I had already concluded, so that was little help.

And I have seen that marking on one other sword on eBay - which appeared to be a gothic-style hunting sword, 19th century. Another unusual piece with quite an elaborate gothic scabbard.

I have spotted hirshfanger bayonets used in the Danish army too. I'm not sure how much further afield they extended.

Any insights at all will be appreciated.

Bryan.H · 9th September 2010, 11:41 AM

.................................................. .

Ron Anderson · 9th September 2010, 12:04 PM

Bryan

Thanks for your response. It was very illuminating.

However, there is a mechanism to attach to a firearm barrel. It is simply missing a spring, so that may be difficult to detect in the photo. In the eBay one I saw, the spring was still there.

The shaft you see on the side fits onto a firearm. Forgive me, I don't know much about guns or bayonets and don't really know the terminology used. However, it is a strange sliding mechanism that fits onto a barrel.

It is unusual to say the least, but it conforms to the mechanisms on other hirshfanger bayonets I've seen. It's not in the least like your standard military bayonet. This may not be military at all. It may have been used in civilian hunting for all I know - a hirshfanger that could clip onto a hunting rifle.

This is a sword-bayonet, by that definition, not just a sidearm.

You may well be right. This may well be English. It does look a bit like a band sword. But it also looks like a hunting sword. And it resembles other Hirshfanger bayonets I've seen.

Your post was very informed. Thanks. You've given me a bit to think about.

Ron Anderson · 9th September 2010, 12:16 PM

Here is an example of another Hirshfanger bayonet – Danish. It has almost exactly the same locking mechanism as my bayonet. The steel piece on this mechanism should be on mine but it is missing. You'll see the similarities with my bayonet in its style - both look like classic hunting swords, though this one with its odd shaped crown or crest still looks a bit like a hirshfanger. Mine has lost that shape, however the similarities are still clear. At least they're clear to me.

http://www.holmback.se/bayonets/Notes/Dan.htm

Ron Anderson · 9th September 2010, 12:26 PM

celtan · 10th September 2010, 04:32 PM

I own a Danish hirschfanger, but it isn't a bayonet, more like a cutlass/machete. Then, I also own a Swedish Sword-bayo, with a beautifully characteristic swedish blade.

Click on the thumbs:

Swedish Sword Bajo

Danish M1777-1801 Note the curved blade!

Bryan.H · 10th September 2010, 05:24 PM

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ron Anderson · 11th September 2010, 01:43 AM

Sorry Bryan

You seem to be offended. That wasn't my intention.

I was just seeking to clarify what this item was and you had clearly misidentified it.

Keep well.

Ron Anderson · 11th September 2010, 01:54 AM

Those are great swords, Celtan.

Both of them. But I particularly like the Swedish sword bayonet.

The guard suggests they're not the sort of swords I associate with Hirschfangers. I wouldn't usually associate a stirrup hilt with a hunting sword. More like the type of symmetrical guard you see in the Danish bayonet I posted. Mine has that but has evolved a little to appear more like a standard bayonet.

However, that Swedish sword may be related in some way. I've not seen that before. Of those, there is also an English 'cutlass bayonet', but I think it's a later model. Not as early, and certainly as attractive, as that Swedish sword.

It's possible these Hirschfanger bayonets hail more from the scandinavian countries than from Germany. I will confess I haven't ever actually seen one positively identified as German. But I have seen Danish models. And now this Swedish cutlass-bayonet.

celtan · 11th September 2010, 04:53 PM

Hi Ron,

Hirschfanger actually means something like deer's canine (Tooth-fang?). Several of the forester hunting daggers from Nazi Germany are also classified as such. They are not too rare...

I'm not very into either sword bayonets or hirschfangers, although as you can see a few have attracted my attention. I own several spanish, american et al sword-bayonets, but the swedish c1815 one I posted has a really neat blade.

Best regards

Manuel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Anderson

Those are great swords, Celtan.

Both of them. But I particularly like the Swedish sword bayonet.

The guard suggests they're not the sort of swords I associate with Hirschfangers. I wouldn't usually associate a stirrup hilt with a hunting sword. More like the type of symmetrical guard you see in the Danish bayonet I posted. Mine has that but has evolved a little to appear more like a standard bayonet.

However, that Swedish sword may be related in some way. I've not seen that before. Of those, there is also an English 'cutlass bayonet', but I think it's a later model. Not as early, and certainly as attractive, as that Swedish sword.

It's possible these Hirschfanger bayonets hail more from the scandinavian countries than from Germany. I will confess I haven't ever actually seen one positively identified as German. But I have seen Danish models. And now this Swedish cutlass-bayonet.

7th September 2010, 01:38 AM	#1
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hirshfanger bayonet Here is another item in my collection with a fair degree of mystery associated with it. I believe this is a hirshfanger bayonet. That is about all I know and I assume that this item hails from one of the German states in the 19th century, or from another Northern European country (Scandinavian?). It has an interesting canvas covering to the scabbard, and a matching frog. This is old and dirty. It has layers of age to it and looks to me like the covering was created to protect the scabbard while out in the rain or the woods. Underneath the canvas covering is the scabbard. One can actually feel the mouth and chape and the leather of the scabbard and I can only surmise that having been protected for so long by the canvas it is in excellent, possibly mint, condition. The spring on the locking mechanism appears to be missing. Otherwise, with the exception of small nicks on the blade, this bayonet is in extremely nice order. I'm going to guess this item was used for hunting, and is not military. But are these not by nature military? There is one marking on the blade, pictured here. This seems to be rare and recently an item like this, without a scabbard, sold on eBay for an awful lot more than I paid. Does anybody here have a better idea about this particular "hirshfanger bayonet". ie Does anybody know the pattern, origins, etc? Also, it's a great opportunity for someone to expand on how these interesting sidearms developed. I for one would be very interested to know. Regards Ron Attached Images

9th September 2010, 11:41 AM	#3
Bryan.H Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 51	.................................................. . Last edited by Bryan.H; 9th September 2010 at 06:07 PM.

10th September 2010, 04:32 PM	#7
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	I own a Danish hirschfanger, but it isn't a bayonet, more like a cutlass/machete. Then, I also own a Swedish Sword-bayo, with a beautifully characteristic swedish blade. Click on the thumbs: Swedish Sword Bajo Danish M1777-1801 Note the curved blade! Last edited by celtan; 10th September 2010 at 05:51 PM.

10th September 2010, 05:24 PM	#8
Bryan.H Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 51	>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Last edited by Bryan.H; 11th September 2010 at 11:34 AM.

8th September 2010, 04:26 AM	#2
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	No comments? I'd be surprised if no-one here has ever seen this sword-bayonet. Yes, it is scarce but with the collective experience in this forum surely someone's got some idea of what it is. The only clue I can offer is that I saw the exact piece for sale without a scabbard on Ebay - and it sold for a whopping sum. And sadly the seller had no idea what it was other than that it was a hirshfanger bayonet. This I had already concluded, so that was little help. And I have seen that marking on one other sword on eBay - which appeared to be a gothic-style hunting sword, 19th century. Another unusual piece with quite an elaborate gothic scabbard. I have spotted hirshfanger bayonets used in the Danish army too. I'm not sure how much further afield they extended. Any insights at all will be appreciated.

9th September 2010, 12:04 PM	#4
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Bryan Thanks for your response. It was very illuminating. However, there is a mechanism to attach to a firearm barrel. It is simply missing a spring, so that may be difficult to detect in the photo. In the eBay one I saw, the spring was still there. The shaft you see on the side fits onto a firearm. Forgive me, I don't know much about guns or bayonets and don't really know the terminology used. However, it is a strange sliding mechanism that fits onto a barrel. It is unusual to say the least, but it conforms to the mechanisms on other hirshfanger bayonets I've seen. It's not in the least like your standard military bayonet. This may not be military at all. It may have been used in civilian hunting for all I know - a hirshfanger that could clip onto a hunting rifle. This is a sword-bayonet, by that definition, not just a sidearm. You may well be right. This may well be English. It does look a bit like a band sword. But it also looks like a hunting sword. And it resembles other Hirshfanger bayonets I've seen. Your post was very informed. Thanks. You've given me a bit to think about.

9th September 2010, 12:16 PM	#5
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Here is an example of another Hirshfanger bayonet – Danish. It has almost exactly the same locking mechanism as my bayonet. The steel piece on this mechanism should be on mine but it is missing. You'll see the similarities with my bayonet in its style - both look like classic hunting swords, though this one with its odd shaped crown or crest still looks a bit like a hirshfanger. Mine has lost that shape, however the similarities are still clear. At least they're clear to me. http://www.holmback.se/bayonets/Notes/Dan.htm

9th September 2010, 12:26 PM	#6
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228

11th September 2010, 01:43 AM	#9
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Sorry Bryan You seem to be offended. That wasn't my intention. I was just seeking to clarify what this item was and you had clearly misidentified it. Keep well.

11th September 2010, 01:54 AM	#10
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Those are great swords, Celtan. Both of them. But I particularly like the Swedish sword bayonet. The guard suggests they're not the sort of swords I associate with Hirschfangers. I wouldn't usually associate a stirrup hilt with a hunting sword. More like the type of symmetrical guard you see in the Danish bayonet I posted. Mine has that but has evolved a little to appear more like a standard bayonet. However, that Swedish sword may be related in some way. I've not seen that before. Of those, there is also an English 'cutlass bayonet', but I think it's a later model. Not as early, and certainly as attractive, as that Swedish sword. It's possible these Hirschfanger bayonets hail more from the scandinavian countries than from Germany. I will confess I haven't ever actually seen one positively identified as German. But I have seen Danish models. And now this Swedish cutlass-bayonet.