Schiavona - The one that got away

[werecow]

Hi there,

I imagine any collector who frequents auctions and does not have unlimited funds has seen some beautiful swords be sold of to a higher bidder, appearing to be just out of reach. So I wanted to make a thread where we can mourn the loss of these beautiful swords and remember them fondly! Or if such a thread already exists please point me to it, as I am a new poster here (though lurking for a while now). }|)

I'm posting this on the European board because mine happens to be European, but any sword is welcome.

My biggest regret was this schiavona that I was bidding on last September. It was sold with a haudegen or walloon sword, but my focus was the schiavona. This isn't the fanciest example I've ever come across or the most well-preserved, but something about this sword in particular appeals to me and I am still sad I didn't manage to get it. The basket looks like it wants to cradle my hand and I like the chiseled highlights. The broad blade looks like it has a high degree of distal taper and the broad, deep looking fuller gives it a kind of brutal-yet-elegant look. I am very curious as to how it feels in the hand. There are some modest engravings on the blade that give it just a bit extra. The pommel has some nice little details and the brass gives the whole thing a fun little highlight.

I have only a modest budget and I decided to bid far more than I usually do, for my 40th birthday. Sadly, not enough, as I was only the second highest bidder even after going a fair bit outside my comfort zone - though I bought two other swords for the money I set aside that I'm now quite fond of (one of them from here!).

I will forever be chasing schiavonas (schiavonae?) that have this kind of broad fullered blade, cat's head pommel and hilt.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by werecow

Hi there,

I will forever be chasing schiavonas (schiavonae?) that have this kind of broad fullered blade, cat's head pommel and hilt.

The plural is schiavone.
The one in the image you attached is a nice one. These swords don't have to be fancy to be appealing, they were workaday weapons made for mercenary soldiers. Condition is not all that bad, I've seen worse. Sorry you missed it! Fortunately these aren't all that rare, perhaps next time your luck will land you one with its period scabbard!

The hilt basket on this one is an early version of what is classified as Oakeshott Type 2 in the reference literature, appearing at the opening of the 17th cent. and remaining popular for some decades thereafter. The broad blade, with single deep fuller and negligible taper in its width, is of a form reminiscent of an early style classified by most modern scholars as Oakeshott Type XIIIb which is much-depicted in later medieval art .

These swords have a nice balance, the basket incorporates a thumb ring which ensures a firm grasp in the hand.

[ulfberth]

I agree with Philip "These swords don't have to be fancy to be appealing" I like this one very much and to me its a 17th c one. Most schiavona's on the market are 18thc not bad, but early ones like this one are more rare and especialy the ones with the wider branches like this one has.
In my 45 years of collecting I only once had one like it and would be prepared to go deep in my purse to buy that one back.
I prefer the early one above the more fancy and the later model are usualy more fancy, the simpler the older.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[werecow]

I agree with Philip "These swords don't have to be fancy to be appealing"

Very true. To me swords should at least look like they were made with combat in mind. I often find that the ones I like the most are the ones with modest decorations rather than the ones that are extremely elaborate (although there are always exceptions).

These swords have a nice balance, the basket incorporates a thumb ring which ensures a firm grasp in the hand.

As a relatively new collector I've yet to handle a sword with a thumb ring, but I'm currently saving up for a Walloon sword (of the Amsterdam city guard type, if I can find one I can afford). The rings have always struck me as slightly odd and a bit anomalous somehow but maybe that's because I don't have a good handle yet on how Walloon hilts and Schiavone* developed. Did thumb rings develop from the nagel on Messers, by any chance?

* Grazie for the correction Philip.

[toaster5sqn]

Werecow, thumbrings are on the left, the nagel was on the right so no connection in their development. I do know that thumbrings were also common on Polish sabres and English mortuary hilts but which sword had them first I don't know.

Robert

[werecow]

Originally Posted by toaster5sqn

Werecow, thumbrings are on the left, the nagel was on the right so no connection in their development. I do know that thumbrings were also common on Polish sabres and English mortuary hilts but which sword had them first I don't know.

Robert

D'oh! I've always had trouble telling my left from my right. }|:oP

Originally Posted by Philip

Thumb rings are found on quite a number of different European sword types. For example, they are found on Styrian / Bellunese riding-sword hilts ca 1560-70, and also on Polish sabers from the 16th through 18th cent. I don't know if there is any connection between this feature on the Messer and the schiavona.

Now that you guys mention it I've also seen them on some Sinclair hilts / dussacks, e.g.:



I guess they are less anomalous than I thought.

[ariel]

There are no ”buts” about this schiavona: it is perfect. Nothing fancy about it, just a pure muscular example of an old fighting sword in practically perfect shape. There are some of us on the Forum who are almost as old as this schiavona, and we all are in a worse shape and as to “fighting”, let’s not touch the subject…

I am sorry you missed it, but you are young and will still meet the schiavona of your dreams.

And thanks for the new topic: all of us have bags of similar sorrows:-((

[Philip]

Originally Posted by werecow

The rings have always struck me as slightly odd and a bit anomalous somehow but maybe that's because I don't have a good handle yet on how Walloon hilts and Schiavone* developed. Did thumb rings develop from the nagel on Messers, by any chance?

.

Thumb rings are found on quite a number of different European sword types. For example, they are found on Styrian / Bellunese riding-sword hilts ca 1560-70, and also on Polish sabers from the 16th through 18th cent. I don't know if there is any connection between this feature on the Messer and the schiavona.

Attached here is a dorsal view of a schiavona hilt, just below the axis of the grip you can see the thumb ring incorporated into the basket. These, like Polish sabers, are not unduly heavy swords but having the right thumb hooked on the ring contributes a lot to control and the ability to secure the weapon during use, without resorting to a wrist-lanyard.

[Philip]

Here are additional pics of the same schiavona. Note that the diagonal border of the basket, on the obverse side, is composed of two parallel bars, with "ladder rungs" in between them. This is the mark of a Type 2 hilt. The later and more ornate variants, Types 2a and 2b, have two and three rows of these rungs or steps, respectively, forming the outer border of the basket.

The well-preserved scabbard on this example has the iconic sailor's knot braided into the seam of the leather, representing the Republic of Venice's symbolic marriage to the sea.

[schiavonafleck]

Hello wewecow!
I am the owner of that schiavone and I know exactly what you are talking about! I’ve had experiences like this when your heart aches because you failed to buy the schiavona you wanted!
I deal exclusively with schiavona swords because they bind me to the history of my people! I am from Croatia where these swords were widely used and probably produced (baskets) from the 16th to the 18th century. (Dalmatia and northern Adriatic)
I am sure that in time there will be a beautiful schiavona that will belong to you! )
This is my collection! )

[ulfberth]

That is a beautiful collection of good Schiavona's !
In my opinion the schiavona is under rated on today's market, if compared to the basket hilt swords than schiavona's are realy under priced, after al they are mostly of the same period.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[werecow]

Very nice collection indeed! Quite a lot of variation in a single sword type, too. Do they handle as differently as they look?
The one that started the thread would still be my favorite in terms of looks. There's just something about that blade.

Can't win them all, but perhaps one day I'll find something comparable. }|:o)

[schiavonafleck]

Thanks ulfberth and werecow!
The price of schiavona swords has been rising quite a bit in the last few years. Schiavona swords generally do not have a standard balance. Some are very upbeat while others with wide and long blades are quite difficult to handle. But generally great moving swords that perfectly protect the fists, and of course the perfect look.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by schiavonafleck

Hello wewecow!
I am the owner of that schiavone and I know exactly what you are talking about! I’ve had experiences like this when your heart aches because you failed to buy the schiavona you wanted!
I deal exclusively with schiavona swords because they bind me to the history of my people! I am from Croatia where these swords were widely used and probably produced (baskets) from the 16th to the 18th century. (Dalmatia and northern Adriatic)
I am sure that in time there will be a beautiful schiavona that will belong to you! )
This is my collection! )

Wow! That is a MAGNIFICENT collection, and right you are to be focused on these beautiful swords which indeed proudly represent your heritage. It has always been my understanding that these were widely held to have been used by the palace guards in Venice for the Doge, and that these personnel were typically Croatian. The basket hilts evolved from simpler S guard sword hilts from Hungary, where there were diplomatic and cultural connections of long standing. In the 18th century the pandours of Austro-Hungary who were irregular forces comprised of mostly Croatians and Hungarians. Many of the cavalry sabers were Hungarian, but as far as I have known, they did not use schiavona.

This is despite the fact that the schiavona was widely used often by other Italian forces, with other incidental cases elsewhere. It was once thought that the schiavona was the inspiration for the Scottish basket hilt, but this was thoroughly disproven, though they are both wonderfully attractive forms.

I am curious about the production of the hilts in Croatia.

It seems the lineage and evolution of the hilt form ,especially some of the components have their own evolutionary line. The familiar 'cats head' pommel seems to have existed with Slavonic soldiers in the 14thc. By into the 15th c. in Hungary there were rectangular pommels with notable boss at center. The recurved crossguard and evolving other bars (including the leaf shapes over ricasso) were evolving in S. Germany (which often it seems were close to developments in N. Italy).
It would seem these early forms of 'schiavona' style hilts were evolving by 16th into early 17th c. referencing S. German styles of course becoming more widely used.

The term 'schiavona' is often referred to a painting of 1510-1512 (by Titian) called "the Woman from Dalmatia" (Croatian or Slavonic, which is more linguistically applied), and which might explain the application of the term to the sword. This was because of its primary association with the Croatian guards of the Doges place in Venice. As always, colloquial terms for things cover a wide, often tenuous berth.

Years ago, I too wanted just a good example of a schiavona, my opportunity came when through a good deal of horse trading, I got the example attached here. Its asymmetrical feel in the hilt was intriguing, and has a cavalry style backsword blade as popular in mid to late 18th c. The blade is inscribed VIVA Ferdinand IV of the Two Sicilies who was deposed by the Sicilian constitution of 1812. He was reinstated as king of the Two Sicilies (Sicily and Naples) in 1816, and the kingdom prevailed until Italian unification in 1861.

I feel this is likely an example used by loyalists in the post 1812 period.

I think one of the most exciting examples to find would be with the CX marking (Council of Ten of Venice).

[schiavonafleck]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Wow! That is a MAGNIFICENT collection, and right you are to be focused on these beautiful swords which indeed proudly represent your heritage. It has always been my understanding that these were widely held to have been used by the palace guards in Venice for the Doge, and that these personnel were typically Croatian. The basket hilts evolved from simpler S guard sword hilts from Hungary, where there were diplomatic and cultural connections of long standing. In the 18th century the pandours of Austro-Hungary who were irregular forces comprised of mostly Croatians and Hungarians. Many of the cavalry sabers were Hungarian, but as far as I have known, they did not use schiavona.

This is despite the fact that the schiavona was widely used often by other Italian forces, with other incidental cases elsewhere. It was once thought that the schiavona was the inspiration for the Scottish basket hilt, but this was thoroughly disproven, though they are both wonderfully attractive forms.

I am curious about the production of the hilts in Croatia.

It seems the lineage and evolution of the hilt form ,especially some of the components have their own evolutionary line. The familiar 'cats head' pommel seems to have existed with Slavonic soldiers in the 14thc. By into the 15th c. in Hungary there were rectangular pommels with notable boss at center. The recurved crossguard and evolving other bars (including the leaf shapes over ricasso) were evolving in S. Germany (which often it seems were close to developments in N. Italy).
It would seem these early forms of 'schiavona' style hilts were evolving by 16th into early 17th c. referencing S. German styles of course becoming more widely used.

The term 'schiavona' is often referred to a painting of 1510-1512 (by Titian) called "the Woman from Dalmatia" (Croatian or Slavonic, which is more linguistically applied), and which might explain the application of the term to the sword. This was because of its primary association with the Croatian guards of the Doges place in Venice. As always, colloquial terms for things cover a wide, often tenuous berth.

Years ago, I too wanted just a good example of a schiavona, my opportunity came when through a good deal of horse trading, I got the example attached here. Its asymmetrical feel in the hilt was intriguing, and has a cavalry style backsword blade as popular in mid to late 18th c. The blade is inscribed VIVA Ferdinand IV of the Two Sicilies who was deposed by the Sicilian constitution of 1812. He was reinstated as king of the Two Sicilies (Sicily and Naples) in 1816, and the kingdom prevailed until Italian unification in 1861.

I feel this is likely an example used by loyalists in the post 1812 period.

I think one of the most exciting examples to find would be with the CX marking (Council of Ten of Venice).

Jim McDougall, thank you for the nice introductory words. I am also studying possible blacksmiths who worked in Dalmatia/Croatia. On some baskets of schiavonas are visible inscriptions in Croatian Cyrillic used in Dalmatia in that period. "Grgur" and "Sava" were signed, which I am sure are names from the Croatian area. The "M-C" inscription on the baskets also appears, but I'm not sure where it comes from. If I understood correctly it is your schiavona that you attached!? A very beautiful example with historical important blade! I have this one of mine with "GRGUR" inscription.(you can see in the middle photo)

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by schiavonafleck

Jim McDougall, thank you for the nice introductory words. I am also studying possible blacksmiths who worked in Dalmatia/Croatia. On some baskets of schiavonas are visible inscriptions in Croatian Cyrillic used in Dalmatia in that period. "Grgur" and "Sava" were signed, which I am sure are names from the Croatian area. The "M-C" inscription on the baskets also appears, but I'm not sure where it comes from. If I understood correctly it is your schiavona that you attached!? A very beautiful example with historical important blade! I have this one of mine with "GRGUR" inscription.(you can see in the middle photo)

Thank you! Yes, it is indeed my sword which I acquired some years ago. While I simply wanted an example, I had not anticipated the depth of the history associated with this one. While schiavona are not typically thought of in the 'Napoleonic' period, it is known they found service in numerous circumstances outside the Italian regions.

It is interesting that examples as you note have Croatian names etc. but I would have thought these were inscriptions associated with the individuals using them in the service of the Doge. I honestly had not thought of the hilts being fashioned in Croatia, and just as many cutlers assembled swords throughout Styria and other areas it is probably hard to find reliable records of these shops.

Thank you so much for responding and the kind words.

Best regards
Jim

[urbanspaceman]

I've just bought a Pappenheim rapier so I've got no money left for a while unfortunately; I also am in love with these swords

[werecow]

I just bought a Walloon sword, so I'm probably tapped for the rest of the year as well.

But I believe links to active auctions are not allowed on the forums.

[werecow]

Speaking of which, this one was on auction earlier today. Presumably it's been sold now so I hope that's OK. It looks a little odd to me (though it's got one of those broad fullered blades that tickle my fancy!), but I still have lots to learn about these so I'm curious about your opinions. Aside from the wire wrap, is it maybe a composite of old, or even old and new parts? That pommel looks more like something belonging on a swept hilt rapier, and something about the basket looks a bit oddly proportioned to me, as if it's too wide for its length.