Fighting Irons

Queequeg · 23rd August 2008, 02:14 PM

I just finished reading Tai Pan, by James Clavell, and in it he describes several characters as using a weapon known as "fighting irons".

Unfortunately, he doesn't describe them very well, and a google search isn't revealing much.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c...y&start=0&sa=N

I had to filter out the words "shirt", "tshirt", "dodger", "fork", and "Jeremy", which gave me only 200 hits, including 2 websites about weapons laws in Hong Kong which say that "fighting irons" are illegal.

Does anyone know what these weapons are?

I don't think they're either the 7 or 9 section whip chains, by the way. What little description Clavell does give suggests that they're heavier and have less sections. Also, he has European characters using them, and I doubt any 19th century Englishmen studied wushu.

fearn · 23rd August 2008, 03:51 PM

Interesting search. Here's the only reference I've found so far. It's a list of prohibited weapons in Hong Kong:

Travellers are liable to prosecution if they bring into/out of Hong Kong any "weapon" which includes Chinese-style throwing dart, gravity knife, gravity-operated steel baton, knuckleduster, Chinese-style fighting iron, spring-loaded steel baton, any knife the blade of which is exposed by a spring or other mechanical/electric device, and any bladed/pointed weapon. Source

I wonder if this is a term a bureaucrat came up with? If so, I wonder if it has a proper name in the martial arts community? At a guess, Clavell came up with the name after reading the customs form on his way to Hong Kong for research, or something similar.

Search continues for a picture.

F

Andrew · 23rd August 2008, 04:31 PM

I suspect the reference is to the short iron "maces" ubiquitous in late Qin China as a personal defense weapon.

Photo from www.oriental-arms.com

Rick · 23rd August 2008, 04:36 PM

I saw the film version of this book starring Bryan Browne (FX) (sp?)

In the final duel between Brock and Struan during the typhoon; IIRC they are using (what the prop master at least thought) were fighting Irons .

They looked about the size (a bit longer) and shape of a crowbar with a hooked end and a smallish blade welded parallel to the shaft about 6 inches below the hooked end .

Could the image below (top left) be one ?
Anyone read Chinese ?

For what it's worth anyway ..

fearn · 23rd August 2008, 05:37 PM

Andrew, I agree with you, although I'm still trying to remember the proper Chinese name.

Rick, you're possibly right, but that picture looks like a baby hook sword, and those are traditional Chinese weapons.

F

Rick · 23rd August 2008, 06:12 PM

Oh well ......

Jim McDougall · 23rd August 2008, 06:32 PM

Queequeg, I just wanted to say I really enjoy your approach to the study of weaponry, which really puts some mystique, artistic license and romanticism back into it. While I admit I am not a fantasy buff or particularly avid reader, it is most interesting to discover what weapons or actual inspirations seem to have influenced the imaginations or perceptions of these authors. I have always admired this ability and it is fascinating exercise into seeing how these actual items are likely perceived by the public at large, as being described in narrative often is key in studying historic ethnographic weapons.
A good example of this in one instance is the description of Magellan killed by a kampilan. Would that have been the form that is well known today? or perhaps even an entirely different kind of sword, or even variation of the weapon?

Another aspect of artistic license pertaining to weapons is in classical art itself. It is known that the masters often used contemporary weaponry in illustrating historic events, often even Biblical ones. Rembrandt is known to have a virtual armoury among his collections of items used as studies in his work, with wide ranges of weapons, including even the keris, no doubt obtained from merchants goods returning from the East Indies. With this in mind I have on occasion viewed the weapons in 'Dungeons and Dragons' with interest, the most memorable the two opposite bladed weapon which of course recalls the 'haladie', best known in the Mahdist Sudan. The weaponry in 'Lord of the Rings' and even 'Harry Potter' most likely carry the influence of actual historical weapons as well.
Another instance I can think of was the popular Frank Frazzetta illustration titled "The Death Dealer" with a formidable warrior wielding a huge battle axe and mounted on a huge charger. At his side was a long, guardless sabre which rather reminded me of what might be described as an ancient shashka. My curiosity eventually led to the Sassanian swords of this type among the holdings at the Met in New York. It is still hard to imagine exactly what group of ancient warriors this image portrayed, but the point is the composite grouping of accoutrements and weapons he carrys.

Just wanted to note that while much weapon study is based on examining actual examples and reviewing as much as possible in scholarly research, it is really a lot of fun to travel into the romantic and entertaining world of literature and art once in a while. Our curiosity, as discussed, may often lead to the discovery of many key facts or discoveries that can sometimes be surprisingly relevant to other research in progess.

Glad you're here and very much enjoyed this query, especially learning more on these Chinese weapons.
Thanks very much gentlemen!

All best regards,
Jim

Queequeg · 24th August 2008, 12:52 AM

Jim,

Thank you. Comic books (as a child), fantasy novels (teen through adult), and then films (ditto) were the way I got interested in weaponry. I now make knives and a few longer blades for sale, and I'm always interested in unusual and rare designs- the best selling knife I make is inspired by the ginunting, for example.

I have a few more weapons from films I'll be asking about, I'm sure.

As for the fighting irons, I can't speak for the film because I didn't see it, but I don't think Clavell wrote about the mace which resembles a butcher's steel. Clavell specifically mentioned that they had multiple sections joined by links of chain.

Perhaps something like the mace with a couple of smaller bars attached to the end?

23rd August 2008, 02:14 PM	#1
Queequeg Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Detroit (New Mayapan) Posts: 96	Fighting Irons I just finished reading Tai Pan, by James Clavell, and in it he describes several characters as using a weapon known as "fighting irons". Unfortunately, he doesn't describe them very well, and a google search isn't revealing much. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c...y&start=0&sa=N I had to filter out the words "shirt", "tshirt", "dodger", "fork", and "Jeremy", which gave me only 200 hits, including 2 websites about weapons laws in Hong Kong which say that "fighting irons" are illegal. Does anyone know what these weapons are? I don't think they're either the 7 or 9 section whip chains, by the way. What little description Clavell does give suggests that they're heavier and have less sections. Also, he has European characters using them, and I doubt any 19th century Englishmen studied wushu.

23rd August 2008, 04:36 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Get Out The Salt Grains I saw the film version of this book starring Bryan Browne (FX) (sp?) In the final duel between Brock and Struan during the typhoon; IIRC they are using (what the prop master at least thought) were fighting Irons . They looked about the size (a bit longer) and shape of a crowbar with a hooked end and a smallish blade welded parallel to the shaft about 6 inches below the hooked end . Could the image below (top left) be one ? Anyone read Chinese ? For what it's worth anyway .. Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 23rd August 2008 at 04:47 PM.

23rd August 2008, 03:51 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Interesting search. Here's the only reference I've found so far. It's a list of prohibited weapons in Hong Kong: Travellers are liable to prosecution if they bring into/out of Hong Kong any "weapon" which includes Chinese-style throwing dart, gravity knife, gravity-operated steel baton, knuckleduster, Chinese-style fighting iron, spring-loaded steel baton, any knife the blade of which is exposed by a spring or other mechanical/electric device, and any bladed/pointed weapon. Source I wonder if this is a term a bureaucrat came up with? If so, I wonder if it has a proper name in the martial arts community? At a guess, Clavell came up with the name after reading the customs form on his way to Hong Kong for research, or something similar. Search continues for a picture. F

23rd August 2008, 04:31 PM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I suspect the reference is to the short iron "maces" ubiquitous in late Qin China as a personal defense weapon. Photo from www.oriental-arms.com

23rd August 2008, 05:37 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Andrew, I agree with you, although I'm still trying to remember the proper Chinese name. Rick, you're possibly right, but that picture looks like a baby hook sword, and those are traditional Chinese weapons. F

23rd August 2008, 06:12 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Oh well ......

23rd August 2008, 06:32 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Queequeg, I just wanted to say I really enjoy your approach to the study of weaponry, which really puts some mystique, artistic license and romanticism back into it. While I admit I am not a fantasy buff or particularly avid reader, it is most interesting to discover what weapons or actual inspirations seem to have influenced the imaginations or perceptions of these authors. I have always admired this ability and it is fascinating exercise into seeing how these actual items are likely perceived by the public at large, as being described in narrative often is key in studying historic ethnographic weapons. A good example of this in one instance is the description of Magellan killed by a kampilan. Would that have been the form that is well known today? or perhaps even an entirely different kind of sword, or even variation of the weapon? Another aspect of artistic license pertaining to weapons is in classical art itself. It is known that the masters often used contemporary weaponry in illustrating historic events, often even Biblical ones. Rembrandt is known to have a virtual armoury among his collections of items used as studies in his work, with wide ranges of weapons, including even the keris, no doubt obtained from merchants goods returning from the East Indies. With this in mind I have on occasion viewed the weapons in 'Dungeons and Dragons' with interest, the most memorable the two opposite bladed weapon which of course recalls the 'haladie', best known in the Mahdist Sudan. The weaponry in 'Lord of the Rings' and even 'Harry Potter' most likely carry the influence of actual historical weapons as well. Another instance I can think of was the popular Frank Frazzetta illustration titled "The Death Dealer" with a formidable warrior wielding a huge battle axe and mounted on a huge charger. At his side was a long, guardless sabre which rather reminded me of what might be described as an ancient shashka. My curiosity eventually led to the Sassanian swords of this type among the holdings at the Met in New York. It is still hard to imagine exactly what group of ancient warriors this image portrayed, but the point is the composite grouping of accoutrements and weapons he carrys. Just wanted to note that while much weapon study is based on examining actual examples and reviewing as much as possible in scholarly research, it is really a lot of fun to travel into the romantic and entertaining world of literature and art once in a while. Our curiosity, as discussed, may often lead to the discovery of many key facts or discoveries that can sometimes be surprisingly relevant to other research in progess. Glad you're here and very much enjoyed this query, especially learning more on these Chinese weapons. Thanks very much gentlemen! All best regards, Jim

24th August 2008, 12:52 AM	#8
Queequeg Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Detroit (New Mayapan) Posts: 96	Jim, Thank you. Comic books (as a child), fantasy novels (teen through adult), and then films (ditto) were the way I got interested in weaponry. I now make knives and a few longer blades for sale, and I'm always interested in unusual and rare designs- the best selling knife I make is inspired by the ginunting, for example. I have a few more weapons from films I'll be asking about, I'm sure. As for the fighting irons, I can't speak for the film because I didn't see it, but I don't think Clavell wrote about the mace which resembles a butcher's steel. Clavell specifically mentioned that they had multiple sections joined by links of chain. Perhaps something like the mace with a couple of smaller bars attached to the end?