Two-Handed Great Sword

[dana_w]

I inherited this sword from my father two years ago. He believe that it dated from the early 16th century. Some people have told me it is a ceremonial sword, others say it's Victorian era copy. Nobody seems to like the looks of the triangular flukes or how close they are to the guard. Any ideas?

Below the guard on one side is the Coat of Arms of the Visconti of Milan. It depicts the Biscione, a serpent who appears to be swallowing a human, but is actually giving birth to it. On the other side is a St. George Cross.

Overall Length 63 inches
Handle 15 inches long
Guard 14 inches wide
Blade 48 inches long
Weight 5 pounds (approx)

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum, Dana
If you don't mind, we will move this thread to the European Armoury section, where in principle you will find (more) members dedicated to your sword's area.

[dana_w]

Thanks Fernando!

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Dana,
This is a most interesting example of the two hand sword, and extremely attractive. It is not a 'Victorian' copy and the ceremonial term is broadly interpreted.This sword does seem to be quite well made with an apparant degree of age, and with the heraldic motifs as well as style it does seem quite possible to be a guards weapon most likely from Milan. As you have well noted the serpent is indeed the biscione (Milanese 'bissa')which is the heraldic emblem of the Visconti family. The cross in the shield is actually the coat of arms of Milan, and is known as the cross of St. Ambrose.

The two hander swords were of course used by German and Swiss landsknechts usually by the doppelsoldners, specialized swordsmen in the combat involving pikes and placed in front lines against these. After initial contact and as battle became closely engaged melee these huge swords were of little use, but were key in breaking through and destroying these deadly pikes. By the mid 16th century these were largely discontinued as combat weapons, but did become highly symbolic and visible in guard situations as well as in certain degree ceremonial.
The structure and elements of this sword seem well made enough for such purposes, and it does not appear to be a combat weapon. The flukes as noted are a bit unusual as they are a bit heavy, almost rudimentary in shape and are placed vestigially high on the blade near the ricasso and guard system, certainly not as on the earlier swords. Most of these seem to have typically had ring type guards rather than this basket type, and examples of the German and Swiss combat forms of 16th century seem to have had no ricasso on blade.

The pommel is faithfully represented, and appears to be of c. 1615-30 (AVB Norman, "Rapier and Smallsword" , 1980, p.257, #38) a truncated cone tapering toward tip with longitudinal flutes and prominant capstan. In examples of these two hand swords from Italy (Boccia & Coelho, 582-584) these are termed 'spadoni a due mani' and shown as c. 1600-10, with #583 having the same type pommel. The flukes on these are smaller and almost toothlike, while on others these are slightly larger but downward turned lunettes. The hilts are of similar form and some with the central rib bisecting the grip. These are quite finely made and not with the spiral wood grip, which suggests a later probably ceremonial guard type weapon.

I would say this, with these heraldic emblems and representations of features in the style of earlier weapons of these forms, it may be of 18th century or early 19th and from Milan. Certainly worthy of further and more detailed research, there are many possibilities given the complexity of geopolitical circumstances of these times and well into the 19th c. in Italy.


All best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

A rather elegant sword you got there, Dana.
You are right in that the flukes are too close from the guard, thus prevent the user from the option of holding the sword by the ricasso whith one of the hands, a typical feature in these swords.
I follow Jim's thought on its age. It looks like the biscione is not so aged. However, Jim ... this being an early XIX century replica, how do you distinguish its difference from a Victorian copy, when its period is about the same ... or not ?
Is it that i didn't quite understand the contents of your post ?

[dana_w]

Hi Jim,

Right now I am in new user purgatory, so my return posts will be delayed a bit.

Thanks for your comments. You have contributed some very useful information. I will update my notes, and research the cross of St. Ambrose. Maybe I can find a copy of the books you mentioned too. Do you have any tips on where to begin a more “detailed research”. The geopolitics of 18th and 19th Italy are (just a little) outside of my scope.

My father was a friend of Joe Kindig Jr (http://www.kindigrifles.com/legacy.html) and purchased the sword from him in the late 50s or early 60s. The cross guard looks much shorter than the handle in the photos, but it is an optical illusion. They are almost the same length. In hand the sword feels well balanced.

Fernando posted some photos of a ceremonial montante from the Lisbon Military Museum. It too has unusual flukes close to a basket type guard.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...6&postcount=13

Thanks again,
Dana

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

A rather elegant sword you got there, Dana.
You are right in that the flukes are too close from the guard, thus prevent the user from the option of holding the sword by the ricasso whith one of the hands, a typical feature in these swords.
I follow Jim's thought on its age. It looks like the biscione is not so aged. However, Jim ... this being an early XIX century replica, how do you distinguish its difference from a Victorian copy, when its period is about the same ... or not ?
Is it that i didn't quite understand the contents of your post ?

Thank you Fernando, and actually by the time I wrote this it was late and I did not reread my text effectively enough. I have always thought of the period term 'Victorian' as a British description as Queen Victoria reigned from 1837-1901, and have not regarded other European kingdoms and city states or principalities as of that character. However it is true that the British fascination with copied arms and armour often included the outstanding work of Ernst Schmitt of Munich and there were quite likely other European ateliers as well.
I had thought of the early 19th century in assessing approximate age of this sword in terms of much of Northern Italy at that time having largely Napoleonic perspective. It seems I had not reached enough perspective in the research I had been doing before writing to adequately address that potential.
In these times in Italy and well into the 19th century up to the unification there was of course a great deal of nationalistic fervor and I believe that Napoleon had created Milan as a capital of these northern regions. Im not sure just how this kind of apparantly commemorative weapon might have been created for palacial guards or other official capacities in this rather turbulent period but seems worth looking into. As always, I look forward to other views on this.

All the best,
Jim

[Matt Easton]

You're welcome Dana,

See these examples of Italian spadoni from treatises:



Note the triangular shape of the projections, like yours - quite different to the more claw-like projections on German and Swiss greatswords.

A large Venetian example:


And if we want to look at Greatswords with these projections close to the hilt, check out this Brunswick state sword from 1573:



Regards,
Matt

[dana_w]

Wonderful Matt, that info will help me with some of the critics.