My last Beja Dagger!?

Lew · 17th April 2009, 09:17 PM

Well my set is complete know whew!

Lew · 17th April 2009, 09:31 PM

Here are the others that complete the set of the four blade variations. My question is about the "J" shaped bladed one and the new one at the top of the post these do not seem to be very practical using blade shapes so could they have some other symbolic meaning to them?

Lew

CharlesS · 18th April 2009, 01:29 PM

Lew,

Had I not spent too much in Baltimore, you would have had some competiton for the recurved one rom Ebay!!....I thought it was about as good as they get, and the scabbard is fantastic. Congrats, very glad YOU got it.

....and if you ever decide to sell or trade the straight one..........

colin henshaw · 18th April 2009, 06:13 PM

Hi Lew

Great set of Beja daggers. I read somewhere that the "U" and "S" shaped varieties were used for ham-stringing ?

Here are some pictures of the Hadendowa, (called Fuzzy-Wuzzy in colonial times), from an old magazine article, that you might like to see...

Regards
Colin

Jim McDougall · 18th April 2009, 08:05 PM

Uh, OK Lew!!! the last one

.....
What a beauty though, and I can see why acquiring it would seem as if you had reached the zenith of this excellent grouping.

Every time I look at these distinctly hilted daggers, I cannot help thinking of the chilanum of India, and its anthromorphically inspired hilt form. It is known of course that the trade from India was a constant in the Red sea trade, and interesting to look to the east from India for many sources for influence in Africa.
The interesting hook type end of many of these has also often reminded me of the ceremonial type swords of India which have had this curious right angled blade deviation since ancient times. I think this might be the direction in looking for possible symbolic meaning or influences in these shapes.
Beyond that, pragmatically I have heard the explanation noted by Colin, for hamstringing.
BTW, Colin, I do recall the equally ancient National Geographic article those pictures came from, I think it was about a 1928 issue!!! Fantastic stuff looking through these old magazines, so close to contemporary, and of course these weapons were then, and still are in use.

On another note on the hooked daggers. In conversations with a Beja gentleman from Eritrea, who I came to know quite well over a few years, he told me these were actually used by the Afar (often called Danakil). He still had family in Eritrea, and shared with me a video of the tribesmen using various weapons including kaskaras in dancing ceremonies.

All the best,
Jim

Emanuel · 18th April 2009, 08:28 PM

Nice one Lew! I've been dreaming of one of those for a while.

The one you posted at the top of the thread brings to mind a bolo of khukri, with a heavy wide-belly good for chopping instead of stabbing or cutting.

Congrats on a great set. Also thanks Colin for the pictures, they're awesome!

Emanuel

asomotif · 18th April 2009, 11:31 PM

Nice daggers.

And also very nice shields. (thanks for sharing these fuzzie pictures)
Would love to get hold of one of those shields.

Ferguson · 19th April 2009, 02:14 AM

Excellent piece! Congrats!
Steve

colin henshaw · 19th April 2009, 12:44 PM

Hi

Here are a few more images of Beja tribesmen, showing their weapons & costume from some old postcards I have, that might be of interest...

Regards
Colin

Jim McDougall · 19th April 2009, 03:35 PM

Great pictures Colin!! There is very interesting complexity in these tribal groups, and the Bisharin are but one of the number comprising the Beja (pronounced bay'za) confederation. The gentleman I knew always noted this proudly, and that he was from Eritrea. He did not note further tribal denomination. In our discussions, he mentioned the note on the curiously shaped blade which he claimed emphatically was an Afar peculiarity. It seems he said the blades on the Eritrean examples were curved.

It seems unfortunate that there has been no real effort to study the ancestry of these hilt and blade forms, and typically references simply show groupings of variations without specific notice. At least Lew has shown an interest in that there are variations, and I included my note again to see if it was of any value, as the numerous times I have brought this up before seem to have gone unnoticed. It would be interesting to see if anyone else has any thoughts or opinions on these interesting daggers, or if they will remain simply groupings as curiosities.

Best regards,
Jim

colin henshaw · 20th April 2009, 01:19 PM

Hi

An interesting topic, that I have given some thought to and make a few comments :-

Tribal societies in the past tended to be very conservative and their customs and material culture could remain almost unchanged for centuries. Change might only occur when a dynamic and energetic individual came on the scene (eg. King Shaka), or when the tribal society came into contact with a more advanced culture (eg European colonialism & Arab infiltration into East Africa).
An example of lack of change would be the isolated Australian aborigines.

Tribes would often adapt the customs and culture of more powerful and dominant neighbours, eg the Kikuyu adopted the weapons and ornaments of the Masai and the Tsonga adopted the weapons and headring of the Zulu.

Tribal forms of material culture such as dagger shapes, costume, hairstyles etc., became "indicators of ethnic identity". Weapons would often become an important part of male costume, and a sort of adornment and display.

Regarding Beja daggers, I feel the most likely source of influence would be Ancient Egypt. The "S" shaped blade is similar to the Egyptian sword "khepesh". (see attached image). Other examples are - the Sudanese throwing stick "trombash" is almost identical to the Ancient Egyptian throwing stick, as depicted in tomb paintings. The Ancient Egyptian headrest form is to be found down the Nile valley, also lyre and harp musical instruments. The pronounced "X" shaped Beja hilts might just be an exaggeration of the traditional Arab dagger hilt with expanded ends to the grip, such as the Omani jambiya. Such exaggerations of established forms could again reinforce ethnic identity and display.

Just a few ideas to ponder...

Regards
Colin

Jim McDougall · 20th April 2009, 08:35 PM

Hi Colin,
Thank you so much! Thats exactly what I was hoping for...actual thought and discussion. Very well said, and what you have pointed out makes perfect sense, and more plausible than the more remotely probable Indian connections. I really do appreciate your response, and taking time to do so in well thought out comments.
I like your observations on the cultural development among tribal societies also, again reflecting outstanding knowledge on this subject.

All very best regards,
Jim

CharlesS · 21st April 2009, 01:38 AM

I'd seen the National Geo. Pics before, but not the more recent pics added to the thread. Great pics....thanks for sharing!

colin henshaw · 21st April 2009, 07:29 PM

Hi Jim

Many thanks for your kind remarks, which are much appreciated.

With best regards
Colin

Jambu · 22nd April 2009, 05:48 AM

New Member here,

Thanks for posting this nice set of daggers employing the various blade styles. I hope to assemble such a collection soon, as well as other examples of Beja Arms and Armour. I have a dagger with the curved blade style but it seems newer than yours.

The handle is made from African Blackwood or Mpingo, which is one of the most sought after materials for knife handles and possibly the most expensive wood in the world. A Beja man divulged to me that a block of this wood is also used for sharpening or 'whetting' the blades of these daggers and the 'Kaskara' or S'aif also.

As an aside, I have so far managed to collect the dagger,4 Kaskara, a throwing stick, a Beja Knobkerrie and a shield. Now I need some spears and the other styles of dagger.

The shield is very old and was filthy and caked in grime when I acquired it. After I cleaned it up I found that it has a strange texture and greenish color. It is extremely thick, heavy, and hard as stone. Has a few patches on it of reptile skin. Now I see why Kipling referred to " 'is coffin-'eaded shield "(Coffinhead means large, ungainly head, and used to describe horses).

Here are some pics of the dagger and shield...

Lew · 22nd April 2009, 06:24 AM

Hi Jambu

Welcome to the forum. Your dagger is mid 20th century WW2 era the scabbard seems newer than the dagger to me and is a very nice example with an excellent blade. Beja shields are hard to come by these days it looks like a nice find.

Lew

Jambu · 22nd April 2009, 07:36 AM

Thanks Lew...

Lew · 28th September 2009, 02:07 AM

Just picked this one up mid 20th century.

17th April 2009, 09:17 PM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	My last Beja Dagger!? Well my set is complete know whew! Attached Images

17th April 2009, 09:31 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Here are the others that complete the set of the four blade variations. My question is about the "J" shaped bladed one and the new one at the top of the post these do not seem to be very practical using blade shapes so could they have some other symbolic meaning to them? Lew Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 17th April 2009 at 10:27 PM.

18th April 2009, 06:13 PM	#4
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Lew Great set of Beja daggers. I read somewhere that the "U" and "S" shaped varieties were used for ham-stringing ? Here are some pictures of the Hadendowa, (called Fuzzy-Wuzzy in colonial times), from an old magazine article, that you might like to see... Regards Colin Attached Images

19th April 2009, 12:44 PM	#9
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Here are a few more images of Beja tribesmen, showing their weapons & costume from some old postcards I have, that might be of interest... Regards Colin Attached Images

20th April 2009, 01:19 PM	#11
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi An interesting topic, that I have given some thought to and make a few comments :- Tribal societies in the past tended to be very conservative and their customs and material culture could remain almost unchanged for centuries. Change might only occur when a dynamic and energetic individual came on the scene (eg. King Shaka), or when the tribal society came into contact with a more advanced culture (eg European colonialism & Arab infiltration into East Africa). An example of lack of change would be the isolated Australian aborigines. Tribes would often adapt the customs and culture of more powerful and dominant neighbours, eg the Kikuyu adopted the weapons and ornaments of the Masai and the Tsonga adopted the weapons and headring of the Zulu. Tribal forms of material culture such as dagger shapes, costume, hairstyles etc., became "indicators of ethnic identity". Weapons would often become an important part of male costume, and a sort of adornment and display. Regarding Beja daggers, I feel the most likely source of influence would be Ancient Egypt. The "S" shaped blade is similar to the Egyptian sword "khepesh". (see attached image). Other examples are - the Sudanese throwing stick "trombash" is almost identical to the Ancient Egyptian throwing stick, as depicted in tomb paintings. The Ancient Egyptian headrest form is to be found down the Nile valley, also lyre and harp musical instruments. The pronounced "X" shaped Beja hilts might just be an exaggeration of the traditional Arab dagger hilt with expanded ends to the grip, such as the Omani jambiya. Such exaggerations of established forms could again reinforce ethnic identity and display. Just a few ideas to ponder... Regards Colin Attached Images

18th April 2009, 01:29 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Lew, Had I not spent too much in Baltimore, you would have had some competiton for the recurved one rom Ebay!!....I thought it was about as good as they get, and the scabbard is fantastic. Congrats, very glad YOU got it. ....and if you ever decide to sell or trade the straight one..........

18th April 2009, 08:05 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,941	Uh, OK Lew!!! the last one ..... What a beauty though, and I can see why acquiring it would seem as if you had reached the zenith of this excellent grouping. Every time I look at these distinctly hilted daggers, I cannot help thinking of the chilanum of India, and its anthromorphically inspired hilt form. It is known of course that the trade from India was a constant in the Red sea trade, and interesting to look to the east from India for many sources for influence in Africa. The interesting hook type end of many of these has also often reminded me of the ceremonial type swords of India which have had this curious right angled blade deviation since ancient times. I think this might be the direction in looking for possible symbolic meaning or influences in these shapes. Beyond that, pragmatically I have heard the explanation noted by Colin, for hamstringing. BTW, Colin, I do recall the equally ancient National Geographic article those pictures came from, I think it was about a 1928 issue!!! Fantastic stuff looking through these old magazines, so close to contemporary, and of course these weapons were then, and still are in use. On another note on the hooked daggers. In conversations with a Beja gentleman from Eritrea, who I came to know quite well over a few years, he told me these were actually used by the Afar (often called Danakil). He still had family in Eritrea, and shared with me a video of the tribesmen using various weapons including kaskaras in dancing ceremonies. All the best, Jim

18th April 2009, 08:28 PM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Nice one Lew! I've been dreaming of one of those for a while. The one you posted at the top of the thread brings to mind a bolo of khukri, with a heavy wide-belly good for chopping instead of stabbing or cutting. Congrats on a great set. Also thanks Colin for the pictures, they're awesome! Emanuel

18th April 2009, 11:31 PM	#7
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,224	Nice daggers. And also very nice shields. (thanks for sharing these fuzzie pictures) Would love to get hold of one of those shields.

19th April 2009, 02:14 AM	#8
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Excellent piece! Congrats! Steve

19th April 2009, 03:35 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,941	Great pictures Colin!! There is very interesting complexity in these tribal groups, and the Bisharin are but one of the number comprising the Beja (pronounced bay'za) confederation. The gentleman I knew always noted this proudly, and that he was from Eritrea. He did not note further tribal denomination. In our discussions, he mentioned the note on the curiously shaped blade which he claimed emphatically was an Afar peculiarity. It seems he said the blades on the Eritrean examples were curved. It seems unfortunate that there has been no real effort to study the ancestry of these hilt and blade forms, and typically references simply show groupings of variations without specific notice. At least Lew has shown an interest in that there are variations, and I included my note again to see if it was of any value, as the numerous times I have brought this up before seem to have gone unnoticed. It would be interesting to see if anyone else has any thoughts or opinions on these interesting daggers, or if they will remain simply groupings as curiosities. Best regards, Jim

20th April 2009, 08:35 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,941	Hi Colin, Thank you so much! Thats exactly what I was hoping for...actual thought and discussion. Very well said, and what you have pointed out makes perfect sense, and more plausible than the more remotely probable Indian connections. I really do appreciate your response, and taking time to do so in well thought out comments. I like your observations on the cultural development among tribal societies also, again reflecting outstanding knowledge on this subject. All very best regards, Jim

21st April 2009, 01:38 AM	#13
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	I'd seen the National Geo. Pics before, but not the more recent pics added to the thread. Great pics....thanks for sharing!

21st April 2009, 07:29 PM	#14
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Jim Many thanks for your kind remarks, which are much appreciated. With best regards Colin

22nd April 2009, 05:48 AM	#15
Jambu Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: USA Posts: 17	Nice Dagger set, very interesting forms New Member here, Thanks for posting this nice set of daggers employing the various blade styles. I hope to assemble such a collection soon, as well as other examples of Beja Arms and Armour. I have a dagger with the curved blade style but it seems newer than yours. The handle is made from African Blackwood or Mpingo, which is one of the most sought after materials for knife handles and possibly the most expensive wood in the world. A Beja man divulged to me that a block of this wood is also used for sharpening or 'whetting' the blades of these daggers and the 'Kaskara' or S'aif also. As an aside, I have so far managed to collect the dagger,4 Kaskara, a throwing stick, a Beja Knobkerrie and a shield. Now I need some spears and the other styles of dagger. The shield is very old and was filthy and caked in grime when I acquired it. After I cleaned it up I found that it has a strange texture and greenish color. It is extremely thick, heavy, and hard as stone. Has a few patches on it of reptile skin. Now I see why Kipling referred to " 'is coffin-'eaded shield "(Coffinhead means large, ungainly head, and used to describe horses). Here are some pics of the dagger and shield... Attached Images

22nd April 2009, 06:24 AM	#16
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Jambu Welcome to the forum. Your dagger is mid 20th century WW2 era the scabbard seems newer than the dagger to me and is a very nice example with an excellent blade. Beja shields are hard to come by these days it looks like a nice find. Lew

22nd April 2009, 07:36 AM	#17
Jambu Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: USA Posts: 17	Thanks Lew...

28th September 2009, 02:07 AM	#18
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Well this is really my last one Just picked this one up mid 20th century. Attached Images