A French officer's fighting sword-comments please

M ELEY · 21st May 2014, 07:58 PM

Adding to my quasi-naval collection is this very nice French officer's fighting sword, circa 1790-1800. The pivoting knuckle bow/guard styling appeared to be an affectation popular during this time period and there were other variant swords I've seen with the swivel guards, all French.

This particular model of sword was popular and carried by infantry, marine and naval officers respectfully. The maritime attachment is more than substantiated with its presence in naval collections and volumes. In particular, Gilkerson's 'Boarders Away', pg 124. There is one in the Greenwich Maritime Museum that was featured in Annis' monumental 'Swords for Sea Service'. That amazing specimen (plate 97, Sword# 303) was a direct captured sword with fine provenance. It was carried by Captain Louis L'Heritier of L'Hercule (active 1798), captured by the mortally wounded Captain Alexander Hood of the H.M.S. Mars after their battle on 21 April 1798.
Of note is that the ones attributed to naval usage all seem to have brass wires wrap or banding.

M ELEY · 21st May 2014, 08:02 PM

The reason I bring up the wire wrapping is I personally think it helps point to those with wire binding as being naval. Another type commonly seen has a leather wrapping, which was obviously not typically used on sea-service swords. Here is an old thread from SwordForum that discusses this type sword with the examples of which I speak-

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...fficer-s-sword

fernando · 22nd May 2014, 03:53 PM

Hi Capitão,
The French call it garde tournante (turning guard) if you care to browse on these swords.
I almost bought (swapped) one the other day, from a local private collector.
He has a couple of them and pretends the officer version is more elaborate, as shown here.

.

fernando · 22nd May 2014, 06:07 PM

... And with the plain pommel you have them with either brass and iron guard:

.

Jim McDougall · 23rd May 2014, 03:00 AM

Thank you so much for sharing this one Mark!!! and especially for the references and detail giving such outstanding perspective on these interesting hilt swords. I always find interesting notes like that on the wire wrap fascinating nuances which help so much in proper identification of swords.
Than you Nando for adding this also interesting example. It seems like these 'swivel' hilts existed on other swords as well, perhaps it was Polish examples? but cannot recall for sure .
In any case it is these kinds of entries that make this forum such a valued archive, not necessarily seeking opinions or in query, but simply sharing a very nice example and sharing researched data . Nicely done and much appreciated!!! ")
Im looking forward to someday when you open the Eley Maritime Museum!!! I'll set the GPS on this rig to be there Cap'n Mark!!!

M ELEY · 23rd May 2014, 03:30 AM

Thank you so much, gentlemen, for coming in on this one!

Fernando, excelllent examples that you posted! Not much on the net about this (other than that sword forum thread attached), so nice to see other examples. Actually, I do agree with your colleague that the lion hilt swivel might prove to be the more esthetic piece! I like both of them very much!
So, are you going to add one to your collection?

Interesting the various slight subtleties, such as the differences in four-slot guards, iron vs brass (iron being more infantry model, perhaps?), copper/brass wire vs leather. Even the garde Tournante (thanks for that term, 'Nando!) has differences, with your examples being wider with the loops incorporated into it. Mine has scalloped edging to the rotating knuckle bow, absent on some pieces. Some have a plain quillon, some a raised shell pattern. Even the guard-locking mechanism varies between types, as does the blade type, apparently. I'm told some were straighter, had blued/etched blades, etc. Mine has the traditional 'marine type' wedge blade. No-nonsense, wouldn't want to get hit by it on deck!!

Hello, fellow Cap'n Jim! Yes, I see the day I'll have me a little pirate museum or some such! I'll keep you informed! I thought perhaps there were other types of swivel-type guards, just hadn't seen much covered in any of my references. If you stumble across any pics, please post if you get the chance!
I'm wondering if the French were the oroginal designers and others followed suite?

21st May 2014, 07:58 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	A French officer's fighting sword-comments please Adding to my quasi-naval collection is this very nice French officer's fighting sword, circa 1790-1800. The pivoting knuckle bow/guard styling appeared to be an affectation popular during this time period and there were other variant swords I've seen with the swivel guards, all French. This particular model of sword was popular and carried by infantry, marine and naval officers respectfully. The maritime attachment is more than substantiated with its presence in naval collections and volumes. In particular, Gilkerson's 'Boarders Away', pg 124. There is one in the Greenwich Maritime Museum that was featured in Annis' monumental 'Swords for Sea Service'. That amazing specimen (plate 97, Sword# 303) was a direct captured sword with fine provenance. It was carried by Captain Louis L'Heritier of L'Hercule (active 1798), captured by the mortally wounded Captain Alexander Hood of the H.M.S. Mars after their battle on 21 April 1798. Of note is that the ones attributed to naval usage all seem to have brass wires wrap or banding. Attached Images Last edited by M ELEY; 21st May 2014 at 08:08 PM.

21st May 2014, 08:02 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Further info The reason I bring up the wire wrapping is I personally think it helps point to those with wire binding as being naval. Another type commonly seen has a leather wrapping, which was obviously not typically used on sea-service swords. Here is an old thread from SwordForum that discusses this type sword with the examples of which I speak- http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...fficer-s-sword

22nd May 2014, 03:53 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Capitão, The French call it garde tournante (turning guard) if you care to browse on these swords. I almost bought (swapped) one the other day, from a local private collector. He has a couple of them and pretends the officer version is more elaborate, as shown here. . Attached Images

22nd May 2014, 06:07 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	... And with the plain pommel you have them with either brass and iron guard: . Attached Images

23rd May 2014, 03:00 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Thank you so much for sharing this one Mark!!! and especially for the references and detail giving such outstanding perspective on these interesting hilt swords. I always find interesting notes like that on the wire wrap fascinating nuances which help so much in proper identification of swords. Than you Nando for adding this also interesting example. It seems like these 'swivel' hilts existed on other swords as well, perhaps it was Polish examples? but cannot recall for sure . In any case it is these kinds of entries that make this forum such a valued archive, not necessarily seeking opinions or in query, but simply sharing a very nice example and sharing researched data . Nicely done and much appreciated!!! ") Im looking forward to someday when you open the Eley Maritime Museum!!! I'll set the GPS on this rig to be there Cap'n Mark!!!

23rd May 2014, 03:30 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Thank you so much, gentlemen, for coming in on this one! Fernando, excelllent examples that you posted! Not much on the net about this (other than that sword forum thread attached), so nice to see other examples. Actually, I do agree with your colleague that the lion hilt swivel might prove to be the more esthetic piece! I like both of them very much! So, are you going to add one to your collection? Interesting the various slight subtleties, such as the differences in four-slot guards, iron vs brass (iron being more infantry model, perhaps?), copper/brass wire vs leather. Even the garde Tournante (thanks for that term, 'Nando!) has differences, with your examples being wider with the loops incorporated into it. Mine has scalloped edging to the rotating knuckle bow, absent on some pieces. Some have a plain quillon, some a raised shell pattern. Even the guard-locking mechanism varies between types, as does the blade type, apparently. I'm told some were straighter, had blued/etched blades, etc. Mine has the traditional 'marine type' wedge blade. No-nonsense, wouldn't want to get hit by it on deck!! Hello, fellow Cap'n Jim! Yes, I see the day I'll have me a little pirate museum or some such! I'll keep you informed! I thought perhaps there were other types of swivel-type guards, just hadn't seen much covered in any of my references. If you stumble across any pics, please post if you get the chance! I'm wondering if the French were the oroginal designers and others followed suite?