POWDER FLASKS---A QUESTION OF ORIGIN

kahnjar1 · 14th April 2017, 04:40 AM

Whilst these powder flasks are often seen for sale, the origin stated has been a little hazy, ranging from Arabia, Persia (Iran) and Afghanistan. Also they are often referred to as made from animal scrota. Fact or fiction???
Shown here are 3 from my collection. Two are sewn in what I would call a V shape and the other is straight sewn. This one also has nice tooling decoration with what looks like Lotus flowers on each side, whilst the other two are simply tooled with lined designs.
I should add that the cap on the Lotus one is NOT original. It came to me without one, but I just happened to have a suitable spare amongst my bits and pieces.
My query is this. Is the scrotum story fact or fiction?
What is the general opinion as to origin of the two styles?
Stu

BANDOOK · 14th April 2017, 11:18 AM

HI STU
Here is a example from my collection and its from AFGANISTAN,the camel scrotum story is a fiction,IIBRAHIM B knows more about them as he has mentioned this in several threads before.
Kind Regards
Rajesh

Kubur · 14th April 2017, 04:13 PM

Well, I don't know if you will be interested by my answer, but maybe others might be interested.
I'm not an expert of camel scrotum or camel penis, but as Rajesh said, it's just a story.
My answer is simple, the one to the left is Persian, the two to the right are Afghan / Pakistani.
They are simple copies of nice Persian models.
The Persian one has nice excised floral design; the rude Afghan ones have simple incised geometrical designs.
Mountain men tried to imitate Persian powder flasks, they just tried...

rickystl · 14th April 2017, 09:17 PM

Collectors have referred to the one on the left as being originally of Persian origin. And I'm inclined to agree with that. Even Artzi uses the Persian origin for these flasks. He recently had one for sale with a domestic cat painted on the side of the flask. Which I think is further evidence.
The other two (with the scrotum look) I see generically termed Arab. Why, I don't know. You do see this style on Afghan belt arrangements. You see so many of this style for sale today, I wonder if they are still being made today for the tourist trade?
From a shooter's perspective, both style of flasks are light weight, medium in size, and if in decent condition are perfectly usable today. The Arab style is more handy to pour the powder in a measure due to it's tapered neck and smaller opening. But back in the period they probably just poured an approximate amount of powder directly into the barrel of the gun (dangerous!!). The Persian style is a bit more cumbersom to use due to it's larger opening. I sometimes wondered if these flasks were used to carry water instead of powder due to the large opening. But its really too small for carrying water. And the Moroccan powder horns also have large openings. Which would make it easier to re-fill with powder. One theory I have with the larger openings is that an approximate amount of powder was poured into the palm of the hand, then dropped into the barrel. The larger opening would make this faster. But just a theory.
Anyway, nice looking flasks Stu.

Rick

David R · 14th April 2017, 09:48 PM

I believe the caps to the flasks also double as a powder measure.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 15th April 2017, 03:37 PM

It is said that "These camel scrotum powderflasks are very much the Arabian form".

It is further said that on being released from the Ark the donkey's and camel's scrotums were mixed up and issued to the wrong animals. In fact the Arabian camel has to be assisted in the mating role by its handlers such is the pathetic size ... so the story goes.

rickystl · 15th April 2017, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

I believe the caps to the flasks also double as a powder measure.

Hi David.

Good observation. Could very well be the case. Makes sense anyway.

Rick.

14th April 2017, 04:40 AM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	POWDER FLASKS---A QUESTION OF ORIGIN Whilst these powder flasks are often seen for sale, the origin stated has been a little hazy, ranging from Arabia, Persia (Iran) and Afghanistan. Also they are often referred to as made from animal scrota. Fact or fiction??? Shown here are 3 from my collection. Two are sewn in what I would call a V shape and the other is straight sewn. This one also has nice tooling decoration with what looks like Lotus flowers on each side, whilst the other two are simply tooled with lined designs. I should add that the cap on the Lotus one is NOT original. It came to me without one, but I just happened to have a suitable spare amongst my bits and pieces. My query is this. Is the scrotum story fact or fiction? What is the general opinion as to origin of the two styles? Stu Attached Images

14th April 2017, 11:18 AM	#2
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	AFGHAN POWDER FLASK HI STU Here is a example from my collection and its from AFGANISTAN,the camel scrotum story is a fiction,IIBRAHIM B knows more about them as he has mentioned this in several threads before. Kind Regards Rajesh Attached Images

14th April 2017, 04:13 PM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Well, I don't know if you will be interested by my answer, but maybe others might be interested. I'm not an expert of camel scrotum or camel penis, but as Rajesh said, it's just a story. My answer is simple, the one to the left is Persian, the two to the right are Afghan / Pakistani. They are simple copies of nice Persian models. The Persian one has nice excised floral design; the rude Afghan ones have simple incised geometrical designs. Mountain men tried to imitate Persian powder flasks, they just tried...

14th April 2017, 09:17 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Collectors have referred to the one on the left as being originally of Persian origin. And I'm inclined to agree with that. Even Artzi uses the Persian origin for these flasks. He recently had one for sale with a domestic cat painted on the side of the flask. Which I think is further evidence. The other two (with the scrotum look) I see generically termed Arab. Why, I don't know. You do see this style on Afghan belt arrangements. You see so many of this style for sale today, I wonder if they are still being made today for the tourist trade? From a shooter's perspective, both style of flasks are light weight, medium in size, and if in decent condition are perfectly usable today. The Arab style is more handy to pour the powder in a measure due to it's tapered neck and smaller opening. But back in the period they probably just poured an approximate amount of powder directly into the barrel of the gun (dangerous!!). The Persian style is a bit more cumbersom to use due to it's larger opening. I sometimes wondered if these flasks were used to carry water instead of powder due to the large opening. But its really too small for carrying water. And the Moroccan powder horns also have large openings. Which would make it easier to re-fill with powder. One theory I have with the larger openings is that an approximate amount of powder was poured into the palm of the hand, then dropped into the barrel. The larger opening would make this faster. But just a theory. Anyway, nice looking flasks Stu. Rick

14th April 2017, 09:48 PM	#5
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	I believe the caps to the flasks also double as a powder measure.

15th April 2017, 03:37 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	It is said that "These camel scrotum powderflasks are very much the Arabian form". It is further said that on being released from the Ark the donkey's and camel's scrotums were mixed up and issued to the wrong animals. In fact the Arabian camel has to be assisted in the mating role by its handlers such is the pathetic size ... so the story goes.