Engraved Sword w/snakeskin,lizard skin Scabbard

drzzzzz · 25th March 2005, 04:00 AM

Sorry it took so long to get back...1st I'd like to state...This item was purchased from an estate auction {New York State}several mths ago.The seller stated that the sword was stuck in the scabbard and hadnt been removed since who knows when.After I received it ,I tried to remove the sword from the scabbard but could not.It sat in my cloest for severals weeks until a friend of mine came over to look at it.We both tugged and pulled enough for it to break free from the scabbard.To my amazement were these engravings on both sides of the sword,end to end.This hythened my interest enough to find this sight and to post it .To answer a few questions from the previous posts:There are rings on the scabbard and the lower guard seems to be copper,brass,or bronze.The sword seems to have been sharpen at some time ,the tip looks like to have sharpening marks.Ive attached more photos for you to see.I would like to know if possible: Origin...Approx.Age ...Translation of engraving..and Est. Value....or where I might find out these questions.Thanks For All or Any Information...

tom hyle · 25th March 2005, 07:51 AM

Monetary appraisals are against our noncommercial policy, sorry. The feruling area inside the guard would normally bee filled in with grip material on Turkish, and I think Persian versions of this guard style; what of kaskaras? This one seems empty, and that might be a sign of nontraditional/ignorant modern (not neccessarily foreign though) rehilting. Some folks get very disturbed at rehilting, but if done it was surely done because the old hilt was missing or very badly damaged (for some reason a certain percentage of people always assume I took off a perfectly good handle and threw it away or something, when I say I rehilted a sword, not that that's not just what traditional people commonly did with foreign ones they got). AFAIK this blade almost has to be (more or less) Sudanic African, which I say because of the style of the etching, and Conogre's lizard powers help, too, of course; the mystery is over whether the guard (and handle) is original/foreign/or what, and where/what tribe. I think the flat blade bevelled only at the edge (we think of this as machettelike; I think it shows the African descent of machete) is fairly common; I haven't owned kaskara though; only takouba. Also, I specifically wonder if those brown dots on the handle aren't rusty rivets that are under the leather, and showing thru.

Conogre · 25th March 2005, 08:24 AM

Honestly, this piece just feels "wrong" as far as a real weapon is concerned, with my honest opinion being that it is either a ceremonial piece, depending upon what the blade inscriptions would translate to or else purposefully assembled to resemble an antique weapon by a tribal smith in hopes of gaining a substantial sale.
Even in N. Africa, they aren't always above fleecing something other than sheep. **grin**
Another possibility is that it's an old tourist sword that may have been intentionally made just to appeal to tourists and may have been sold as such in a bazaar.
Mike

tom hyle · 25th March 2005, 08:39 AM

I must say, that if you're basing that on thinness and flatness, I don't think those are valid bases for nonfightingness in an African sword; fairly typically (though far from universally) the African has prefferred the quickness and lightness of a thin sword, which also cuts more deeply more easily, though not so well thru anything hard, of course, like bone or armour. Again, takouba I've seen are typically much like this. I know this isn't a takouba; just making a cross-example. Also, of course, one saves on metal, but I truly think that's an over-cited motivation. I think they wanted them like that, for valid martial arts reasons; one encounters this in China, too, in a way; that the better the swordsman the more precise the angular control, the more shockless the parries, the thinner, lighter, faster the sword can be. I think it's an old "real" blade; the dress I'm not sure about, especially the leather-covered parts; I, too feel something "wrong" but I can't put my finger on it. The blade closely reminds me of those on the weird Africishly etched "giant kinzhals"?

Conogre · 25th March 2005, 09:39 AM

I agree fully on your thoughts in regard to African weapons, Tom, just not kaskaras or even takoubas, which are heavily Arabic in influence and actually atypical for what is commonly thought of as an "African" weapon.
Most of the Bedouin or Taureg swords that I've seen with completely flat blades were primarily tourist pieces.
As I've said before, my very first ethno sword was a kaskara with a rather poor and very thin native made blade but it is none the less lethal because of it and is definitely fullered.
True Telek daggers, on the other hand, are notorious for having very thin, flat non-fullered blades so the blade shape alone doesn't make it "wrong", although many of these do tend to show hammer marks and such, not just smooth, flat metal.
I have to admit that the "wrong" feel to this sword is hard to define, and I think Ariel may have hit on it in the other, original (and hijacked...sorry, sorry, sorry **blush**) thread when he made the comment about scabbards made out of the whole crocodile....simply put, too much reptile leather to be believable, and likewise, the same about the Arabic inscriptions/etching/lettering, just too much in the wrong places!

Yannis · 25th March 2005, 09:40 AM

I was confused because it is the same sword in two threads. That’s no good.

I say, not for this sword but generally speaking, that people think important the leather of a snake or a lizard. But except of the esthetic value, the real value of lizard or snake skin is less than a cow hide for an African. Actually it is free if he kills the snake and he has not to be brave to do this. But for the European or the American tourist a snake skin gives a touch of adventure and authenticity on the object.

I don’t know if there is program of ecological protection for the African snakes, but they are really in danger of the edged weapons collectors

tom hyle · 25th March 2005, 03:15 PM

Well, reptile hide is festive.....
The blade and etching look just right to me. I don't think a thin flat edge-sharpened blade on a takouba is touristic at all, and the absense of grooves on such tends to just point to inexpense; the grooves are pretty much decorative, anyway, on a sword so light. Again, of course, this isn't a takouba; I actually think I've hit it on the head; I think it's a rehilt or possibly variant hilt on a "Giant Kinzhal" blade; do you all remember what I'm talking about? Oriental Arms showed us one along with a bunch of other old swords from an attic or something? Blade shape and the total writing coverage match. I note those swords are out of proportion in every dimension but thickness, with handles that are rather uncomfortably large, in my experience; so maybe they aren't users.....

25th March 2005, 04:00 AM	#1
drzzzzz Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 9	Engraved Sword w/snakeskin,lizard skin Scabbard Sorry it took so long to get back...1st I'd like to state...This item was purchased from an estate auction {New York State}several mths ago.The seller stated that the sword was stuck in the scabbard and hadnt been removed since who knows when.After I received it ,I tried to remove the sword from the scabbard but could not.It sat in my cloest for severals weeks until a friend of mine came over to look at it.We both tugged and pulled enough for it to break free from the scabbard.To my amazement were these engravings on both sides of the sword,end to end.This hythened my interest enough to find this sight and to post it .To answer a few questions from the previous posts:There are rings on the scabbard and the lower guard seems to be copper,brass,or bronze.The sword seems to have been sharpen at some time ,the tip looks like to have sharpening marks.Ive attached more photos for you to see.I would like to know if possible: Origin...Approx.Age ...Translation of engraving..and Est. Value....or where I might find out these questions.Thanks For All or Any Information... Attached Images

25th March 2005, 07:51 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Monetary appraisals are against our noncommercial policy, sorry. The feruling area inside the guard would normally bee filled in with grip material on Turkish, and I think Persian versions of this guard style; what of kaskaras? This one seems empty, and that might be a sign of nontraditional/ignorant modern (not neccessarily foreign though) rehilting. Some folks get very disturbed at rehilting, but if done it was surely done because the old hilt was missing or very badly damaged (for some reason a certain percentage of people always assume I took off a perfectly good handle and threw it away or something, when I say I rehilted a sword, not that that's not just what traditional people commonly did with foreign ones they got). AFAIK this blade almost has to be (more or less) Sudanic African, which I say because of the style of the etching, and Conogre's lizard powers help, too, of course; the mystery is over whether the guard (and handle) is original/foreign/or what, and where/what tribe. I think the flat blade bevelled only at the edge (we think of this as machettelike; I think it shows the African descent of machete) is fairly common; I haven't owned kaskara though; only takouba. Also, I specifically wonder if those brown dots on the handle aren't rusty rivets that are under the leather, and showing thru. Last edited by tom hyle; 25th March 2005 at 08:00 AM. Reason: left out 1/2 a sentence

25th March 2005, 08:24 AM	#3
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Honestly, this piece just feels "wrong" as far as a real weapon is concerned, with my honest opinion being that it is either a ceremonial piece, depending upon what the blade inscriptions would translate to or else purposefully assembled to resemble an antique weapon by a tribal smith in hopes of gaining a substantial sale. Even in N. Africa, they aren't always above fleecing something other than sheep. grin Another possibility is that it's an old tourist sword that may have been intentionally made just to appeal to tourists and may have been sold as such in a bazaar. Mike

25th March 2005, 08:39 AM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I must say, that if you're basing that on thinness and flatness, I don't think those are valid bases for nonfightingness in an African sword; fairly typically (though far from universally) the African has prefferred the quickness and lightness of a thin sword, which also cuts more deeply more easily, though not so well thru anything hard, of course, like bone or armour. Again, takouba I've seen are typically much like this. I know this isn't a takouba; just making a cross-example. Also, of course, one saves on metal, but I truly think that's an over-cited motivation. I think they wanted them like that, for valid martial arts reasons; one encounters this in China, too, in a way; that the better the swordsman the more precise the angular control, the more shockless the parries, the thinner, lighter, faster the sword can be. I think it's an old "real" blade; the dress I'm not sure about, especially the leather-covered parts; I, too feel something "wrong" but I can't put my finger on it. The blade closely reminds me of those on the weird Africishly etched "giant kinzhals"?

25th March 2005, 09:39 AM	#5
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I agree fully on your thoughts in regard to African weapons, Tom, just not kaskaras or even takoubas, which are heavily Arabic in influence and actually atypical for what is commonly thought of as an "African" weapon. Most of the Bedouin or Taureg swords that I've seen with completely flat blades were primarily tourist pieces. As I've said before, my very first ethno sword was a kaskara with a rather poor and very thin native made blade but it is none the less lethal because of it and is definitely fullered. True Telek daggers, on the other hand, are notorious for having very thin, flat non-fullered blades so the blade shape alone doesn't make it "wrong", although many of these do tend to show hammer marks and such, not just smooth, flat metal. I have to admit that the "wrong" feel to this sword is hard to define, and I think Ariel may have hit on it in the other, original (and hijacked...sorry, sorry, sorry blush) thread when he made the comment about scabbards made out of the whole crocodile....simply put, too much reptile leather to be believable, and likewise, the same about the Arabic inscriptions/etching/lettering, just too much in the wrong places!

25th March 2005, 09:40 AM	#6
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	I was confused because it is the same sword in two threads. That’s no good. I say, not for this sword but generally speaking, that people think important the leather of a snake or a lizard. But except of the esthetic value, the real value of lizard or snake skin is less than a cow hide for an African. Actually it is free if he kills the snake and he has not to be brave to do this. But for the European or the American tourist a snake skin gives a touch of adventure and authenticity on the object. I don’t know if there is program of ecological protection for the African snakes, but they are really in danger of the edged weapons collectors

25th March 2005, 03:15 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Well, reptile hide is festive..... The blade and etching look just right to me. I don't think a thin flat edge-sharpened blade on a takouba is touristic at all, and the absense of grooves on such tends to just point to inexpense; the grooves are pretty much decorative, anyway, on a sword so light. Again, of course, this isn't a takouba; I actually think I've hit it on the head; I think it's a rehilt or possibly variant hilt on a "Giant Kinzhal" blade; do you all remember what I'm talking about? Oriental Arms showed us one along with a bunch of other old swords from an attic or something? Blade shape and the total writing coverage match. I note those swords are out of proportion in every dimension but thickness, with handles that are rather uncomfortably large, in my experience; so maybe they aren't users.....