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14th December 2017, 04:47 AM | #1 |
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How Strong are Luzon and Visayan Blades
I've been seeing claims around some forums that Luzon and Visayan Blades are so weak, that they are made of incredibly soft iron, that they break after a few uses and that even Aztec wooden weapons are more effective, how accurate is this claim?
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15th December 2017, 04:14 PM | #2 |
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Hello ashkenaz,
Welcome to the forum! Interesting question that you pose. I don't use my antique weapons to do any heavy cutting. I don't want to damage them. However, I have tried a number of WWII-era and later blades on various cutting chores and they perform well. Hardening of the steel edge is variable but I have not found any failures/breakages yet. Are you referring to some of the modern reproductions perhaps? I view these as largely decorative. Ian |
22nd December 2017, 07:26 PM | #3 | |
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There's a narrative going on around that the only effective Filipino blades are almost exclusively, if not literally exclusively, Moro blades. It's been popping in and out on some websites by a few users. ""Notice how most of the good weapons from the Philippines are all Moro made"" ""lmao Filipinos wish they could be as accomplished as the Moros in making swords and weapons. Its been reported that Filipino made weapons have always been inferior to Moro made weapons. Filipinos made soft iron weapons that broke and dented after a few times of use. Even aztec weapons are better than that."" There are a few users I've seen on a few comment sections convinced by this. As someone who has also himself witnessed beforehand, well made antique Filipino blades, I highly doubt these claims myself, if I lack the justification to refute this, there could be a massive spread of misinformation that no one will be able to control for a while. |
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22nd December 2017, 09:29 PM | #4 |
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Ashkenaz,
I don't know who said these things but I think they are mistaken. There are some fine Visayan and Tagalog knives around, not to mention Ilokano, Ifugao, Bicolano, etc. The T'boli make excellent blades too. Not very well informed comments that you quote IMO. Ian. |
22nd December 2017, 11:42 PM | #5 |
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I can see where people might get the idea from. I'm often impressed by the quality of the metalwork on Moro blades. Laminated construction so that a soft body supports a very hard edge and stops cracks from spreading when that very hard edge cracks in use, superb sharp long-lasting edges. Often decorative pattern-welding. The construction quality of the blades, and their artistry, is on a par with that of excellent Japanese katana, superb early Medieval pattern-welded swords, and top-quality Chinese swords (harder to compare objectively with crucible steel/wootz swords, since they're made quite differently, but you could add them too). Since Japanese blades are often of such quality that they attract "these are the best blades in the whole world" fanboyism, it shouldn't be too surprising to see similar for Moro swords. Of course, one also needs some ignorance of the quality of other people's excellent swords, and it's helped along by a good dose of nationalism and/or racism (including 2nd hand nationalism/racism).
That said, there are Luzon and Visayan blades with that same level of quality. What do these people compare? Are they comparing superb 19th century Moro blades with post WW2 tourist bolos? I know I haven't been impressed by the average quality of the post-WW2 Moro kris (including tourist specials). Is it just the magic of "Moro"? (Note that a significant part of arnis/escrima/kali is marketed as "Moro", at least implicitly, with practitioners posing for photos with kris or barong in hand, despite this family of martial arts being historically anti-Moro.) For sure, a statement like "the only effective Filipino blades are almost exclusively, if not literally exclusively, Moro blades" is not true. While some cheap bolos are junk, many are excellent work knives. If somebody's grandmother has used her Igorot bolo as a work knife for decades and it's still going strong, it is certainly an effective blade. One could, as a matter of taste, condemn it as ugly, but to call it ineffective, weak, soft, fragile, junk, or such - not at all. Same thing for many other work knives. (Tourist knives/swords, OTOH, are often of rather poor quality.) |
27th December 2017, 12:25 AM | #6 | |||
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The same can be found for many other cultures all across the globe. Quote:
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The Lumad, the Visayans and some of the communities of southern Luzon actually had to literally fend off the Moro raiders for centuries; it was them rather than the Spaniards who stood their ground! A considerable part of the Moro economy was based on a predatory life style; raiders sure appreciate high quality "tools" and also have the means to spend considerable amounts for their blades. I certainly would not be surprised if any of the Moro peoples were shown to having had higher quality blades on average than, for example, Visayan communities. However, it does not follow that high-end Moro blades surpassed high-end Visayan blades. And whatever quality the blades of each side might have had, the outcomes over much of the historic time were not necessarily in favor of the Moro, despite their undeniable warrior skills... Regards, Kai |
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27th December 2017, 05:18 PM | #7 | |
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I hope that some of the comments here will help you change people's minds about the quality of Filipino sandata, and convince them that excellent edged weapons were made by non-Moro groups for many centuries. How else would they have survived Moro attacks over the years? While acknowledging that Moro weapons were often of fine quality, those of other Filipino groups need to be respected too. Ian. |
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27th December 2017, 11:49 PM | #8 |
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Maraming Salamat Ian!.............and well said!
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28th December 2017, 01:21 AM | #9 |
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Walang anuman kong kaibigan! You're welcome Battara.
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15th December 2017, 05:02 PM | #10 | |
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all Luzon and Visayan blades I have in my collection are very well worked and frankly said I can't remember to have seen many broken blades from this region. And let me make one remark, when a blade is worked from soft iron it will get bent and when on the other hand you have a "hard" blade there is the danger that it will break. Do you can show us such claims? And from me as well, welcome to the forum. Regards, Detlef |
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15th December 2017, 07:43 PM | #11 |
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"Soft" and "weak" are different.
Central Asian knives were always deliberately made soft: that made them unbreakable but easily sharpened : the natives used the bottom of a ceramic "piala", a teacup. Any small rock would do, too. |
16th December 2017, 02:41 PM | #12 | |
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For working blades, the Filipino approach is to have a differentially hardened blade on the soft side of things (in old times often with an inserted steel edge): it will easily take a sharp edge and can quickly be resharpened in the field or in the jungle with any pebble from a stream. As already mentioned, the chance of accidentally breaking a decent blade with a soft back is nil. Pure fighting blades tend to be a tad stronger hardened but still will bend under abuse rather than break (and that is a good thing as already mentioned by others). Antique Filipino blades are usually very well crafted with some early laminated pieces equalling Moro blades in quality; and Moro blades were regarded by the Spaniards to be on par with their high-end Toledo steel blades... The areas under strong colonial rule apparently got reasonable access to imported European steel which results in younger antique and later blades to be often forged from monosteel. Still, these tend to be of reasonable to very good quality. I'd prefer them any day over what is to be found in the drawer of an average "modern" kitchen! As Ian mentions, modern reproductions may well fall short of expectations, especially if done in stainless steel - obviously, these are meant as curios/wallhangers! It is to be expected that some bladesmithing skill has been lost during the last century. However, it should be noted that locally crafted Filipino blades are still in active service as fighting blades while most other armed forces just have mere camping tools and rarely a dagger or two left in their arsenals... Regards, Kai |
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16th December 2017, 03:36 PM | #13 | |
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Hope you are not saying it in company of Gurkhas or Chilean commandos. It would be sad for all of us to lose you:-) |
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17th December 2017, 12:41 PM | #14 | |
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ut ok here goes. modern stuff you get in asia is beyond bad most of the time.. much of it is useless. some of it is ok some of it is good and some is excellent if you go to a very isolated part of the Philippines youll still see people living in a very basic subsistence life. nobody owns a chainsaw. the bolo knives theyll make will be good and solid as poeple dont have much money and if the makers makes a poor knife they will return ruining his reputation. the natives in mindoro still make good cheap high quality working knives. the ifugao sill make good stuff as well most populated areas the knives are cheaper and less quality just turned out for 150 or 200 pesos as thats all people will pay. no sheath basic grinding no sharpening ect. its like mass production. the vasayas are like that in some areas. but in a pile of cheap junk you can usually get a few good blades for working. most knife makers in south east asia dont know of tempering and the spring its still a novelty. there was very little transfer of metal working from europeans oddly. so their blades will have no hardness except for about 1cm along the edge. this is why a blade can be bent but its still had enough to cut a nail in two. there is however tempered blades i have seen and i have even seen oil quenching but its either information that was kept secret and not spread by locals or it was not spread due to cultural aspect.s for exampe even today the fugao do not know what a metal plane is so they in history hammered their blades smooth and then smoothened them on a stone. but in the lowland migrans tagalogs visayans ect took with themform what is now indonesia when they mograted the metal plane.. so they will plane their blades smooth with a special tool when they are soft . like you plane wood. but you see even such a usefull tool due to cultural differences didnt spread. so i have no doubts that tempering didnt spread due to again ethnospecific knife makers and lack of cultural exchange. if an edge quench is poorly done i.e the blade is not hot enough it will just be iron and will be useless and if its to great an area they blad eiwll just chip or snap like a carrot. so thats where the bad reputation comes from to prove that the edge quench is done correctly more ifugo knife makers leave one side of the edge bevel with the quenching scale so the buyer can see its a clear quench line that is the right width. the worst knives in the phillipines come form dagupan as there its mass production and lowest price counts but ill be honest. ive never broken one in the blade. mostly its the handles that are loose or something generally the worst blades in the phillipines are much better than anything you could buy in thailand or kambodia ect and actually better than much of the indonesian stuff. they are cheap and they work.. the vasayian stuff is mostly single beveled though. much like japanese kitchen knives.. so you must state if you require left or right handed knives. what sort of blade were you looking to buy? |
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17th December 2017, 06:20 PM | #15 |
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Aztec obsidian weapons were incredibly sharp, but incredibly fragile as well. They were designed more to maim, so that the opponent could be captured and then sacrificed to the gods. I imagine they would have to be repaired after any serious use by replacing the obsidian.
As noted, 'soft' is good for blade spines to prevent brittle breakage, and hard is used for the edge to hold an edge longer, but not too hard, or they will chip like glass obsidian too. Again, they can be difficult to sharpen. I have a 'Sting' boot knife that is that hard, they have been known to shatter if dropped. Real pain in the keester to sharpen too. Better an iron/steel weapon bends than breaks in field use. A bent weapon can be beaten or re-bent back into useable shape easily. A broken blade and you are dead. |
17th December 2017, 07:46 PM | #16 |
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Ausjulius,
Thanks for the information. Some of this I did not know. Do you have a picture of a metal plane--I'd be interested to see one and get an idea of how it was used. Ian |
17th December 2017, 10:28 PM | #17 |
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I just want to add to this discussion this: centuries ago good quality steel was in short supply. After the Spanish came and then especially after turn of the 20th century, better quality steel (i.e. spring steel, etc) became increasingly available, and thus less of a need for laminations in steel.
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17th December 2017, 11:12 PM | #18 |
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Just to add some context to current Filipino knives, here are two that I believe are from Mindoro and were made recently. They are almost identical in style and have the same mark ("MIN81") stamped at the base of the blade. It appears they were made at the same time by the same person.
These are high quality blades, both well sharpened with a single bevel to the edge (in the manner of most Visayan knives). The handles are good and tight to the blind tang. Good working knives, practical and inexpensive, that would serve as a weapon if necessary. Ian. . |
18th December 2017, 09:30 AM | #19 |
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I have a pair of those too, garabs, nice working knives, right-handed chisel edge (single bevel). Also, have a similarly edged, scabbarded and gripped ginunting and a pinute sword. I gather they are HC tool steel... All made by DaSilva.
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27th December 2017, 02:27 PM | #20 | |
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but the general rule of thumb is the further from modern life you go in the phillipines the more likely youll find a good knife. |
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27th December 2017, 02:24 PM | #21 | |
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if you want i can find videos of it being used Last edited by Robert; 31st December 2017 at 12:40 AM. |
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27th December 2017, 04:23 PM | #22 | |
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Ian. PS: I've attached the pic in your link for the Forum's files--these links tend to get broken and we lose good information in our archives unless the pics are uploaded to this site. |
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