What is the equivalent of "Wahyu" in other cultures?

silkreeler · 28th October 2009, 10:49 AM

Hi Everyone,

I just learned from some articles that some Javanese believe certain krisses carry with them "wahyu" or divine mandate (loosely translated). Feel free to correct me if I perceive this wrong. Roughly it's like this: A kris or tombak can carry with it some divine (or otherwordly) will to perform certain "mission" for a possessing individual or a society in general.

I have heard of certain krisses in Bali being displayed in some temples and people pray - either to the krisses or simply in front of them. I don't know precisely because I don't practice such belief system. The individual or institution in charge of safekeeping these tosan aji's often say that the the objects (or rather their inhabitants) were assigned the task of maintaining the well being of a specific community, say Banjar X. Now sometimes Banjar Y would come over and borrow the pusaka for a while due to a specific need, and presumably they would return the objects later (they better do - Banjar fights occasionally happen here

). Again, please state if you have different opinions - I am merely repeating what a friend said.

Back to my question - are there similar phenomenon in other cultures? To my extent of knowledge, there are no specific temple in China in which a jian or dao is displayed (or kept in a certain sanctuary), given a name, and being told, 'hey you, you are the protector or caretaker of such and such village". I heard that the Japanese kept certain swords in shrines, but I'm not sure if they have similar belief systems regarding the spirits in the sword and their roles.

What do you guys think?

KuKulzA28 · 28th October 2009, 05:21 PM

I think in Tibet, weapons were traditionally stockpiled in Buddhist temples and had some significance. I've also heard that in India, weapons can be greatly revered in religious settings, from the Sikhs sanctifying blades and practicing chatka on goats to Tamils revering temple-swords dedicated to Kali... In Chinese tradition, there were swords whose purpose was the kill/exorcise evil spirits and demons, but whether these had a entity within themselves and regarded as individuals is hard to say - I think not. I have also heard of the Japanese thing, keeping huge O-tachi in Shinto shrines... but again, I don't know much... but perhaps this can help spur some discussion.

David · 28th October 2009, 08:14 PM

I would love to see this discussed as it applies to the keris in Indonesian society, but if your question is about what other culture have such weapons or object that serve this purpose i really think it is a discussion best served in the main forum where you will have the input of collectors with knowledge of a much larger variance of traditions and cultures. We really try to keep our discussion here specifically focused on the keris.

kronckew · 28th October 2009, 08:17 PM

even us poor westerners have the tradition of magical weapons, special swords like excaliber, or swords forged by elves and dwarves with mystical powers. bronze swords, (cast in stone moulds - the origin of the 'sword in the stone'?) were ritually 'killed', broken or bent, as a sacrifice to the gods, and tossed into rivers and bogs...

fearn · 29th October 2009, 02:08 AM

For those of us geeks who grew up with heroic fantasy and Dungeons and Dragons, magic swords have intelligence an ego, and/or a mission are nothing new. Thinking about it, I wonder where those ideas came from?

Words like Geas, Weird, and Fate do come to mind as rough translations for Wahyu.

I'd also point out a rather odd book The Sword of Heaven (Amazon Link), which is the reportedly true story of a shinto priest's (successful?) attempt to save the world using a magic sword. Interesting story, whether you're a true believer or not. If this did happen, I hope that collectors leave the sword where it is!

Best,

F

Rick · 29th October 2009, 04:50 AM

It wasn't Frodo ?!?!

fearn · 29th October 2009, 06:44 AM

Read the book, Rick.

David · 30th October 2009, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Words like Geas, Weird, and Fate do come to mind as rough translations for Wahyu.

Sorry Fearn, but these words don't seem to be very good or even rough translations of tghe purpose and intent of Wahyu.

mohd · 1st November 2009, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silkreeler

I just learned from some articles that some Javanese believe certain krisses carry with them "wahyu" or divine mandate (loosely translated).

So actually the correct terms to be referred here are tuah keris and isi keris.

BTW, have any of you ever read or heard that certain people could really make a keris to stand staright on it's own tip without any support at all

I guess sometimes we might need to have a good chuckle

Mohd.

ausjulius · 3rd November 2009, 08:15 PM

silkreeler,
as asking if different cultures had or had customs akin to the malay peoples belifes regarding the kris and other weapons ,
i would say a close analog would be the polynesians and melanesians in the pacific,,
aspecialy the maori .
with some clubs being "famous" and being attractive enough to be the source of an attack in invasion from another tribe to capture the item for their own use.. the more note worthy and powerful worriors that the weapon killed or was used to sacrifice the more power it had , and also specific gods and p sprits and ancestors would be associtaed with it, the more people how owned it in the past also could increase its power , the weapon could also take on quests for gots or contain some powers the owner may not be totaly in control or awear of untill they were revealed ...

Atlantia · 3rd November 2009, 10:26 PM

I think that most if not all cultures have some 'history' or attributing a supernatural element to some weapons.
It's not suprising when you consider that often it is weapons technoogy that is at the cutting edge of technological development. It isn't hard to see why that fact and that these items take lives, would lead to them being viewed in such a way.

I can't think of any culture that doesn't have some kind of 'magic' weapons........
Perhaps not Fearns D&D +5 Sentient teleporter

But we all seem to have something worth mention.

Of course Excaliber is the most famous magical sword (probobly in the world) But when you think about it, Excalibers powers were not 'that' high on the scale of magical weapons.
After all it was the scabbard that made the wearer invulnerable. Excaliber was just super sharp, could cut anything and could only be broken by being used for dishonorable purpose.
Of course the 'sword in the stone' story has a 'lot' of similarites to Sigfried and 'Gram' being placed in a tree by Odin.
English swords are way harder, they go into stone!

So, how about the Japanese?
Muramasa's swords are cursed and could alegedly produce an effect somewhere between 'bloodlust' and demonic posession in the weilder.

Greek heroes could be given magic swords by the Gods.

Our french members will tell about the paladin Roland's sword Durendal I'm sure.

And if we are going to go the whole hog, then how about the magic weapons weilded by gods and demons?
Thors hammer Mjöllnir (doesn't he chip a shard off of the Rainbow bridge with it that becomes a dagger?), The Arch-Angel Michael slays (other) demons with a sword which is often flaming. Hephestus makes all manner of interesting things in his forge. Diana has a bow, Mars carries a spear, Freyr has a 'dancing' sword... the list is endless!

EDIT: Anyone like fiction? Fred Saberhagens 'books of swords' are pretty freaking sweet if you like your fictional magic weapon stories a bit more meaty that Moorcock.
'Farslayer howls around the world.. for thine heart which hast wronged me'

The guys great! Sci-fi (Berserker novels) to magic swords (Empire of the east onwards) get reading! Pulp fun.

David · 4th November 2009, 05:27 AM

I would like to point out that legends of Excalibur (originally Caledfwlch) and myths of Greek heroes receiving magic swords from the gods are just that, myths and legends, often written well after the supposed fact. The difference i see with keris and it's concepts of tuah and isi as well of concepts of royal pusaka and the abilities to disperse power and rights of rule through the passing of a specific blade to subservient leaders throughout one's kingdom was not myth or legend, but a living cultural reality. Whether or not one believes that these powers resided within the keris or not is irrelavent. That the people of that culture believed was all that was need to make it true for them. These practices and beliefs are well recorded and documented and can't really be compared with magic swords of the gods or heroes of fiction.
BTW, it seems that Excalibur and the Sword in the Stone were derived from separate myths that at some point became one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur

mohd · 4th November 2009, 12:36 PM

The most famous keris in Malay culture is Keris Taming Sari. Click here and here to know more about Keris Taming Sari

Mohd.

28th October 2009, 10:49 AM	#1
silkreeler Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 27	What is the equivalent of "Wahyu" in other cultures? Hi Everyone, I just learned from some articles that some Javanese believe certain krisses carry with them "wahyu" or divine mandate (loosely translated). Feel free to correct me if I perceive this wrong. Roughly it's like this: A kris or tombak can carry with it some divine (or otherwordly) will to perform certain "mission" for a possessing individual or a society in general. I have heard of certain krisses in Bali being displayed in some temples and people pray - either to the krisses or simply in front of them. I don't know precisely because I don't practice such belief system. The individual or institution in charge of safekeeping these tosan aji's often say that the the objects (or rather their inhabitants) were assigned the task of maintaining the well being of a specific community, say Banjar X. Now sometimes Banjar Y would come over and borrow the pusaka for a while due to a specific need, and presumably they would return the objects later (they better do - Banjar fights occasionally happen here ). Again, please state if you have different opinions - I am merely repeating what a friend said. Back to my question - are there similar phenomenon in other cultures? To my extent of knowledge, there are no specific temple in China in which a jian or dao is displayed (or kept in a certain sanctuary), given a name, and being told, 'hey you, you are the protector or caretaker of such and such village". I heard that the Japanese kept certain swords in shrines, but I'm not sure if they have similar belief systems regarding the spirits in the sword and their roles. What do you guys think? Last edited by silkreeler; 28th October 2009 at 10:55 AM. Reason: typho

3rd November 2009, 10:26 PM	#11
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I think that most if not all cultures have some 'history' or attributing a supernatural element to some weapons. It's not suprising when you consider that often it is weapons technoogy that is at the cutting edge of technological development. It isn't hard to see why that fact and that these items take lives, would lead to them being viewed in such a way. I can't think of any culture that doesn't have some kind of 'magic' weapons........ Perhaps not Fearns D&D +5 Sentient teleporter But we all seem to have something worth mention. Of course Excaliber is the most famous magical sword (probobly in the world) But when you think about it, Excalibers powers were not 'that' high on the scale of magical weapons. After all it was the scabbard that made the wearer invulnerable. Excaliber was just super sharp, could cut anything and could only be broken by being used for dishonorable purpose. Of course the 'sword in the stone' story has a 'lot' of similarites to Sigfried and 'Gram' being placed in a tree by Odin. English swords are way harder, they go into stone! So, how about the Japanese? Muramasa's swords are cursed and could alegedly produce an effect somewhere between 'bloodlust' and demonic posession in the weilder. Greek heroes could be given magic swords by the Gods. Our french members will tell about the paladin Roland's sword Durendal I'm sure. And if we are going to go the whole hog, then how about the magic weapons weilded by gods and demons? Thors hammer Mjöllnir (doesn't he chip a shard off of the Rainbow bridge with it that becomes a dagger?), The Arch-Angel Michael slays (other) demons with a sword which is often flaming. Hephestus makes all manner of interesting things in his forge. Diana has a bow, Mars carries a spear, Freyr has a 'dancing' sword... the list is endless! EDIT: Anyone like fiction? Fred Saberhagens 'books of swords' are pretty freaking sweet if you like your fictional magic weapon stories a bit more meaty that Moorcock. 'Farslayer howls around the world.. for thine heart which hast wronged me' The guys great! Sci-fi (Berserker novels) to magic swords (Empire of the east onwards) get reading! Pulp fun. Last edited by Atlantia; 3rd November 2009 at 11:06 PM.

28th October 2009, 05:21 PM	#2
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	I think in Tibet, weapons were traditionally stockpiled in Buddhist temples and had some significance. I've also heard that in India, weapons can be greatly revered in religious settings, from the Sikhs sanctifying blades and practicing chatka on goats to Tamils revering temple-swords dedicated to Kali... In Chinese tradition, there were swords whose purpose was the kill/exorcise evil spirits and demons, but whether these had a entity within themselves and regarded as individuals is hard to say - I think not. I have also heard of the Japanese thing, keeping huge O-tachi in Shinto shrines... but again, I don't know much... but perhaps this can help spur some discussion.

28th October 2009, 08:14 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	I would love to see this discussed as it applies to the keris in Indonesian society, but if your question is about what other culture have such weapons or object that serve this purpose i really think it is a discussion best served in the main forum where you will have the input of collectors with knowledge of a much larger variance of traditions and cultures. We really try to keep our discussion here specifically focused on the keris.

28th October 2009, 08:17 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	even us poor westerners have the tradition of magical weapons, special swords like excaliber, or swords forged by elves and dwarves with mystical powers. bronze swords, (cast in stone moulds - the origin of the 'sword in the stone'?) were ritually 'killed', broken or bent, as a sacrifice to the gods, and tossed into rivers and bogs...

29th October 2009, 02:08 AM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	For those of us geeks who grew up with heroic fantasy and Dungeons and Dragons, magic swords have intelligence an ego, and/or a mission are nothing new. Thinking about it, I wonder where those ideas came from? Words like Geas, Weird, and Fate do come to mind as rough translations for Wahyu. I'd also point out a rather odd book The Sword of Heaven (Amazon Link), which is the reportedly true story of a shinto priest's (successful?) attempt to save the world using a magic sword. Interesting story, whether you're a true believer or not. If this did happen, I hope that collectors leave the sword where it is! Best, F

29th October 2009, 04:50 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	It wasn't Frodo ?!?!

29th October 2009, 06:44 AM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Read the book, Rick.

3rd November 2009, 08:15 PM	#10
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 424	silkreeler, as asking if different cultures had or had customs akin to the malay peoples belifes regarding the kris and other weapons , i would say a close analog would be the polynesians and melanesians in the pacific,, aspecialy the maori . with some clubs being "famous" and being attractive enough to be the source of an attack in invasion from another tribe to capture the item for their own use.. the more note worthy and powerful worriors that the weapon killed or was used to sacrifice the more power it had , and also specific gods and p sprits and ancestors would be associtaed with it, the more people how owned it in the past also could increase its power , the weapon could also take on quests for gots or contain some powers the owner may not be totaly in control or awear of untill they were revealed ...

4th November 2009, 05:27 AM	#12
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	I would like to point out that legends of Excalibur (originally Caledfwlch) and myths of Greek heroes receiving magic swords from the gods are just that, myths and legends, often written well after the supposed fact. The difference i see with keris and it's concepts of tuah and isi as well of concepts of royal pusaka and the abilities to disperse power and rights of rule through the passing of a specific blade to subservient leaders throughout one's kingdom was not myth or legend, but a living cultural reality. Whether or not one believes that these powers resided within the keris or not is irrelavent. That the people of that culture believed was all that was need to make it true for them. These practices and beliefs are well recorded and documented and can't really be compared with magic swords of the gods or heroes of fiction. BTW, it seems that Excalibur and the Sword in the Stone were derived from separate myths that at some point became one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur

4th November 2009, 12:36 PM	#13
mohd Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 41	The most famous keris in Malay culture is Keris Taming Sari. Click here and here to know more about Keris Taming Sari Mohd.