A sociological and anthropological question

Antonio Cejunior · 15th March 2005, 02:37 PM

Greetings all,

I have been wanting to ask these apparently banale questions, but I am sure you will not take me wrongly, but will understand my own wish to understand others views.
Therefore please do take these questions as motivated by the acknowledgement that we all live in different circumstances (I subscribe to the notion that we are actual a circumstance by nature, cultural and social environment) which prompt us to have different reasons.

Question 1
What is the real driving force behind your interest in swords? Was it initially based on an adult interest for ethnography and anthropology or was it originally based on and evolution from childhood or adolescent fantasy?

Question 2
Is your particular interest in ethnographic weapons based on any specific reason?
a. such as being a national of the country from where those weapons are originated?
b. if not, what particular reasons are behind your attraction?

Question 3
In some tribes of Africa, smiths are outcasts that live outside the village.
They are uncircumcised, therefore they posses both the masculine and the feminine, symbolically having the entirety which confers them, as in the Congo culture, the necessary protection to work iron, a product of Mother Earth's womb extraction.
This being said, some shapes may have a magical connotation. And I am referring specifically to the Kris, be it Indonesian, Malay or Philippino.
My question is divided into the following:

does the snake preside over its shape?
if that is true, does it mean to confer speed or just magic or some other meaning?
what is the meaning of the word kris?

I thank you for your contribution to my enlightment, gentlemen.
Best regards.

wolviex · 15th March 2005, 03:40 PM

Antonio:
Let me answer to your first and second question. In my case, I began interest with weapons just when I started to work in Museum. Earlier I was focused on much different, other historical things. With knowledge there came interest. You know, when you are able to see more, to answer questions, solve someone's "science" problems - then you realize the knowledge is weapon itself, and it began to satisfy you.

Of course first of all I should be interest in my country's armament and history. It's closest to me, and when someone ask you about it, especially from aboard, then you realize how much there is still to discover, and that this is something you can really be proud. This proud and inclination to knowledge are something that still turn you on. But - very often this closest armament seems to be very ordinary to you. Then I like to take a look at something more exotic. I know very a little about Persian, Indian, or Indonesian weapons, but I like them very much, bacause there are different. This difference is a treasure to me, is something unknown, like from the other World - it's somehow a mistery - and it's attractive (in spite for someone's else is ordinary)

Just few words from a thought

Best regards

Montino Bourbon · 15th March 2005, 03:57 PM

I imagine that many men experienced playing with swords, wood or otherwise; I must have started at 6 years of age, I grew up in Italy and still remember wanting and then getting as a gift a 'corrazza', or armor, a play set of course, with a breasplate, helmet, and saber. In those days (1948) in Italy they were made of real metal, and the whole set was very beautiful.

Around age 14 I saw the movie "The 7 samurai" and was instantly taken by Japanese fencing. It wasn't until I was 18 years old and a senior in High school in New York City that I got a chance to study Kendo. I also got my first Japanese sword at that time, and practiced with it quite a lot.

A few years ago I became interested in kerises, and that was partly because of the artistic side and partly because of the 'magic' aspect of these fascinating weapons.

Perhaps you know that Africa is not the only place where blacksmiths are considered 'magical'; I have heard that in Europe, the blacksmith was the only person who, to swear an oath, was not compelled to do it on a bible; he could swear on his anvil. Even though the blacksmith had a touch of the 'diabolical' to be able to work iron, nobody accused him of witchcraft; no blacksmith, no tools, and no weapons! so the religious authorities turned a blind eye to blacksmiths, so it is said.

Ann Feuerbach · 15th March 2005, 04:05 PM

Hello, Long time since we wrote! I have not forgot about you!
Here's a different viewpoint: got started in blades because I had a boyfriend interested in knives and swords...basically boys like blades, I like boys, I learn about blades. (sorry any feminists out there, if there are any). I got the crucible steel remains as a "glass working conservation problem". I realized they were crucible steel and who could NOT be interested in studing crucible Damascus steel! What a amazing PhD research topic!
There is a whole newish academic field of ethnoarchaeometallurgy, (studying the social/cultual aspects of ancient metallurgy). I will be looking into this now for the book. I have some info, in Islamic writing they refere to male (hard) and female (soft) iron. You combine the two to make crucible steel. There are a few good movies on African metallurgy and beliefs.
Ann

Antonio Cejunior · 15th March 2005, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann Feuerbach

Hello, Long time since we wrote! I have not forgot about you!
Here's a different viewpoint: got started in blades because I had a boyfriend interested in knives and swords...basically boys like blades, I like boys, I learn about blades. (sorry any feminists out there, if there are any). I got the crucible steel remains as a "glass working conservation problem". I realized they were crucible steel and who could NOT be interested in studing crucible Damascus steel! What a amazing PhD research topic!
There is a whole newish academic field of ethnoarchaeometallurgy, (studying the social/cultual aspects of ancient metallurgy). I will be looking into this now for the book. I have some info, in Islamic writing they refere to male (hard) and female (soft) iron. You combine the two to make crucible steel. There are a few good movies on African metallurgy and beliefs.
Ann

Hi Ann,

Nice to see you online. Feel free to email me.
I know I have your CD somewhere inside the original envelope, but the fact is that there are many things still to be unpacked as I moved in September or October and the pace of work has not let me get everything back to order.
Kindly remind me on the book's premises. You can email me from here

You had a boy friend but you ended up marrying crucibles huh?

I'm presently researching the connection of Buddhism and Christianism. It is also a very interesting topic, but I understand that religions have no place here.
I'd really like to learn about your updates. Interesting that I just mentioned the Chinese concept of male and female irons.

There's a very interesting theory about Qin Shi Huang's successful unification of early China into the Qin empire, so to speak.

It may be a bit lengthy, so I will approach it when I'm rested.
A pleasure to see you

Good night everybody.

Rivkin · 15th March 2005, 05:12 PM

Well, my reply will be probably the most psychotic one.

I've realised that I like swords during the weapons qualification. I was holding a gun and it was oily, clearly mass produced cheapy. Then flash and bang. And then you don't even see what you hit, because 200 yards is too far away. I like sniper rifles, and I enjoy seeing the results of my shot, but still it's not the same as swinging a custom made blade.

btw I don't know if I like swords. Sometimes it's just like the blade is talking to you, like you feel a connection, like it wants to _serve_.

Concerning the family connection, yes, I did play with my grandfather's trench knife. Not a lot, cause my older brother got a scar from it, so it's kind of became off-limits.

Since my mother's father was a megrelian Prince, I naturally always wanted a kindjal. So very soon I had a gazillion of them (since it was a good time to buy them). Recently I quietly sold nearly all of them to sponsor my other hobbies.
The problem is that kindjals I really, really like are extremely rare - I basically like mechanical damascus.

Antonio Cejunior · 15th March 2005, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montino Bourbon

Perhaps you know that Africa is not the only place where blacksmiths are considered 'magical'; I have heard that in Europe, the blacksmith was the only person who, to swear an oath, was not compelled to do it on a bible; he could swear on his anvil. Even though the blacksmith had a touch of the 'diabolical' to be able to work iron, nobody accused him of witchcraft; no blacksmith, no tools, and no weapons! so the religious authorities turned a blind eye to blacksmiths, so it is said.

Montino,
Wow, it's past midnight here and this Forum is really creative.

Thank you for your input.
Although I pursued Aikido for 30 years I tried to relate to it more in a spiritual way. You know, the mind, the clarscient body, the unification of body and mind.
But I do keep disobeying as disobedience is the first input to creativity.
I do not think that African smiths hold the exclusivity to it. The Chinese have their own story and in fact it is interesting to find the five elements of Chinese cosmogony in the making of a blade:
fire
air
water
metal
wood
It is also interesting to read the article Clarity and Virtue by Carlos Morais José about the sacrifice of Mo Ie's wife and the feminine and masculine metals.
It is available here http://www.arscives.com/gallery/en/f...ge/default.htm
Best regards

Antonio Cejunior · 15th March 2005, 04:10 PM

Thank you Wolviex.
So we are colleagues. I was a Museum director for 20 years and kept a link by now being cultural consultant since 1998.

In today's globalized world of information it is interesting that we still consider exotic things those that do not pertain to our specific culture or to the collection of cultures we became familiar with, thus assimilated it.

Regards

Bill · 15th March 2005, 04:46 PM

Hi Antonio, 1. Ethnography/Anthropology, from a very novice aspect without education in either. 2. Married to a Filipina. 3. Love to know the answer to this. The word Campilan is recorded by Pigafetta to describe a cutlass from Cebu, from a dialect that now has only a little in common with Cebuano; but it seems to have stuck as to describe a sword from Mindanao. Could "creese" have been simular, European translation from one dialect that became universal for Europeans to communicate with different groups. Personally I think the wavy blade developed from function rather than ritual or magical reasons. Here is some wild speculations. The cutting abilities of a wavy blade was good for removing heads. Perhaps the wavy blade was introduced from Indian or Arabs & adapted for function. Perhaps the Minangkabau had some role. Did they learn thier smith & mining from India or Sri Lanka? They appear to be one of the many "waves" that spread through region. As far as the "Moro" kris is concerned, they may have well had some influence as they had settlements in both Brunei & Celebes. Upon the arrival of the Europeans, Brunei seems to have been well armed, notable populations of both Chinese & Bugis & dominated most of the PI; at least untill the Spanish attacked them. Pure speculation but I believe the Bugis played a large roll with both the Keris & Kris but if they did, that role seems to have been lost. Ritual & supernatural aspects of the weapon seem more likely to have been processed in, following function, unpopular to say that, but my opinion.

Yannis · 15th March 2005, 08:42 PM

Antonio
I like your questions. They have some levels of reading them. Here are my answers.

1. I was rather old when I turned my interest to the ethno edged weapons. First I was fascinate with the craftsmanship, then with the history, but always it was a child in me, wanted to play!

2. I started collecting almost any ethnographic blade I could buy. When I realised that I couldn’t get not even one piece from any culture, I turned to my country and neighbour countries. At least I don’t give a damn about mass produced items.

3. The idea of magic powers of blacksmiths is very old. In Greek mythology, Hephaestus, the lame god of fire and anvil, protector of the craftsmen, one of the Olympians, once he made a magic throne and he entrapped Hera. Also Hephaestus manufactured amazing weapons like the thunderbolts for Zeus, the shield of Athena, the heart-piercing arrows of Eros and the invincible armour of Achilles. He was very ugly, but because of his abilities he married the goddess of beauty, Aphrodite!

Of course she was unfaithful.

The snake is an ancient universal symbol. Look Hermes in the first picture and Hercules in the other. I stop here. I don’t want to hurt anyone’s faith.

I have no idea what “kris” means.

Antonio Cejunior · 16th March 2005, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yannis

3. The idea of magic powers of blacksmiths is very old. In Greek mythology, Hephaestus, the lame god of fire and anvil, protector of the craftsmen, one of the Olympians, once he made a magic throne and he entrapped Hera. Also Hephaestus manufactured amazing weapons like the thunderbolts for Zeus, the shield of Athena, the heart-piercing arrows of Eros and the invincible armour of Achilles. He was very ugly, but because of his abilities he married the goddess of beauty, Aphrodite!

Of course she was unfaithful.

The snake is an ancient universal symbol. Look Hermes in the first picture and Hercules in the other. I stop here. I don’t want to hurt anyone’s faith.

I have no idea what “kris” means.

Thank you Yannis for your contribution. I fully agree that the serpent, naga, cobra, (it does not matter) has always been seen with both fear and awe.
In Christianity it embodies the temptation. Yet it also symbolizes medicine,
and is abundantly depicted in Egypt as in this fresco of Osiris

while a serpent rises from the pharaoh's forehead

Very interesting indeed.
I wish I could understand the word kris.
Thanks

MABAGANI · 16th March 2005, 03:17 AM

A. Do you feel that you are frowned upon by the non initiated sword average citizen, friend, family?

I've always been an oddball...amongst average citizens, friends and family, until I show that I've brought the artifacts into cultural and historical context through exhibits, educational conferences, ethnic presentations and martial arts, etc., guess it has to do with understanding.

B. How do you feel about the social acceptance of swords?

* frowned upon
* lack of interest
* fear or weariness?

I'd say there is combination of negativeness, lack of interest and fear again among the average non initiated citizen unless you can show some sort of educational benefit.

C. Therefore, do you think
that swords are placed in a socio-cultural ghetto?

In my experience, learning the art of the sword brings one to a higher level, intellectually and creatively speaking...like the kris/naga form which deals subconsciously with the realms of wisdom, but then again I'm an oddball...lol

Antonio Cejunior · 16th March 2005, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

B.
I'd say there is combination of negativeness, lack of interest and fear again among the average non initiated citizen unless you can show some sort of educational benefit.

C. Therefore, do you think
that swords are placed in a socio-cultural ghetto?

In my experience, learning the art of the sword brings one to a higher level, intellectually and creatively speaking...like the kris/naga form which deals subconsciously with the realms of wisdom, but then again I'm an oddball...lol

Thanks Mabagani,

Fear is one great weapon for ignorance. But then fear is part of the arsenal of the political correctedness of the world.

I do think that in my case, and thank you for sharing yours, I feel that it is most fortunate for me to live in Macau and in touch with the local Chinese community which is entirely different from Mainland China and from Hong Kong. Tolerance is so big that I have witnessed an American Hare-Krishna sect member walk in his safron robe and his almost entirely shaven head without anyone even staring.

Therefore, I have this benefit of not having to face a frown, but rather a curiosity for my interest in swords.

As you were referring to the naga, I was relating myself of the snake and the forbidden tree of Knowledge and what lies behind the real meaning of the old story.

Salamat poo, kaibigan

Bill · 16th March 2005, 03:20 AM

A. Wife hates them, has seen plenty of bolo wounds working the ER is southern Visayas, daughter slightly amused. B. All three. C. Yes

Montino Bourbon · 16th March 2005, 04:12 AM

I always knew that music would be a great factor in my life; and after the army, I ended up studying for twelve years full time with the greatest exponent of Indian music, Ustad Ali Akbar Khan. I play, teach, compose, and perform world music, with an emphasis on Indian classical and folk music and African drumming and singing.

I have pretty much all my life been thought of as 'different', to put it kindly; and I don't mind at all.

My family thinks of my passions as a little strange, but ''That's dad, and we like him that way; never a dull moment!" as one of my daughters says.

The views of the average citizen are not very important to me; I prefer the views of intelligent, well-educated, and tasteful people, which is why this forum interests me.

'Armi bianche', or 'white weapons' as blades and suchlike are called in Italy, have always interested me from the practical, artistic, and spiritual aspects.

I also enjoy going to 'Renaissance fairs', where everybody is armed and usually VERY polite, weapons are appreciated, and where music of the type that I play is respected and enjoyed. If that's a 'socio-cultural ghetto', so be it. I'd rather be there than at a tractor pull! (That's a uniquely American pastime involving large vehicles, lots of burning of gasoline, and not much fun for the likes of me.) Since I belong to a nation that at present is prosecuting a war, I hardly think that John Q Public has much to say if I choose to appreciate swords, especially while strongly condemning wholesale slaughter, which I find tasteless, costly, and ineffective in solving social problems. And, as I mentioned before, I'm a veteran of the U.S. regular army.

Whew! that was a good rant! Thank you for asking interesting questions.

Antonio Cejunior · 16th March 2005, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montino Bourbon

I always knew that music would be a great factor in my life; and after the army, I ended up studying for twelve years full time with the greatest exponent of Indian music, Ustad Ali Akbar Khan. I play, teach, compose, and perform world music, with an emphasis on Indian classical and folk music and African drumming and singing.

I have pretty much all my life been thought of as 'different', to put it kindly; and I don't mind at all.

My family thinks of my passions as a little strange, but ''That's dad, and we like him that way; never a dull moment!" as one of my daughters says.

Greetings Montino,
My apologies, it seems I accidentally skipped your post. Thank you.
Well, probably I am very similar as considered a not-very-social person in the sense that I prefer to do the things I like, including work, though I do not read music, and I have always admired those who do.

My son plays djembe extremely well. He asked one for Christmas some three years ago, the year before he went to Portugal for University and started to play right after he unpacked the gift (we don't hang Christmas socks here)
He went out to play and was heard by a drums team who invited him to play with them in Hong Kong. Well, odd dad here was really proud

Quote:

The views of the average citizen are not very important to me; I prefer the views of intelligent, well-educated, and tasteful people, which is why this forum interests me.

'Armi bianche', or 'white weapons' as blades and suchlike are called in Italy, have always interested me from the practical, artistic, and spiritual aspects.

Yes, it is called armas brancas (plural) in Portuguese. Are the spiritual aspects you referring to connected with their history, their symbology or other reasons?

Quote:

I also enjoy going to 'Renaissance fairs', where everybody is armed and usually VERY polite, weapons are appreciated, and where music of the type that I play is respected and enjoyed. If that's a 'socio-cultural ghetto', so be it. I'd rather be there than at a tractor pull! (That's a uniquely American pastime involving large vehicles, lots of burning of gasoline, and not much fun for the likes of me.) Since I belong to a nation that at present is prosecuting a war, I hardly think that John Q Public has much to say if I choose to appreciate swords, especially while strongly condemning wholesale slaughter, which I find tasteless, costly, and ineffective in solving social problems. And, as I mentioned before, I'm a veteran of the U.S. regular army.

Whew! that was a good rant! Thank you for asking interesting questions.

Thank you for answering them. Culturally I must confess I wouldn't feel very good being "Ren dressed" but then I must acknowledge that the old world, and I am a mix of a westerner and an easterner living in the oldest western outpost in the Far East.
Glad to meet you. I'm a war veteran. 24 months in Angola, early 70's.
Let's cherish peace.

Best regards,
Antonio

VANDOO · 15th March 2005, 09:04 PM

INTERESTING QUESTIONS
I WOULD HAVE TO ANSWER THE FIRST TWO QUESTIONS THE SAME. 1 &2 AS A CHILD I ALWAYS THOUGHT THE OLD PRIMATIVE TRIBAL WAYS OF DEPENDING ON YOUR WITS AND SKILLS WERE NEAT. I STILL FEEL THAT IN MANY WAYS THEY ARE MORE LOGICAL THAN TODAYS CIVILIZATION .
I ALWAYS WANTED TO BE THE NATIVE HUNTER / WARRIOR INSTEAD OF THE GREAT WHITE HUNTER OR COWBOY SO IN MY CHILDHOOD FANTASY BEING TARZAN OR A INDIAN BRAVE WAS ALWAYS MY PREFRENCE. THE MASTERY OF STALKING AND PRIMATIVE WEAPONS WAS ALWAYS OF GREAT INTREST AND I LATER DEVELOPED A INTREST IN MORE MODERN EDGED WEAPONS. TO ME THE WEAPONS ARE OF SECONDARY IMPORTANCE TO THE CULTURES WHO PRODUCED THEM AND THE WAYS IN WHICH THEY WERE USED.

QUESTIONS 3- THE TECKNIQUES USED IN MAKING WEAPONS WERE OFTEN ACCOMPANYED WITH RITUAL AND MAGIC, OR AT LEAST THAT WAS WHAT THOSE WHO WERE NOT INVOLVED IN MAKING THE WEAPONS BELIEVED. I THINK THESE OLD TRADITIONS AND BELIEFS WERE OFTEN ENCOURAGED BY THE CRAFTSMAN OR WITCHDOCTOR, A EARLY FORM OF MARKETING

TAILSMAN OR MAGICAL WRITINGS WERE OFTEN ADDED TO WEAPONS SOMETIMES WHEN MADE OR PERHAPS BY THE WARRIOR TO DENOTE SOME SPECIAL VICTORY OR HIS TRIBAL TOTUM OR PROTECTIVE DIETY.
SHAPES OF POWERFUL DIETYS, ELEMENTS OR SPIRITS WERE OFTEN USED IN MAKEING OR DECORATING WEAPONS. PERHAPS THE WAVEY BLADE SHAPE OF A KERIS MIGHT HAVE COME FROM A NAGA (SERPENT) OR A FLAME BOTH POWERFUL SYMBOLS.

Conogre · 15th March 2005, 11:23 PM

Like Barry, I was an early Edgar Rice Burroughs Tarzan fan, soon followed by Jon Carter of Mars, Conan and many others, all often thrown in together as "Swords and Sorcery"....it was through early Conan literature that I picked up on the fact that all of his fantastic peoples were actually drawn from history and pre-history.
By having some Native American ancestry, I was drawn to spears, shields, knives and axes first, then, later to swords with firearms being my least favorite weapons to this day.
As to snakes, it's only in western civilization that they have evil connotations, with most of the rest of the world revering them.
Even in art, weapons are often paramount in statuary and paintings, plus many bladed pieces are indeed works of art unto themselves.
Very well put questions, particualrly in regards to the "lowly blade".
Mike

MABAGANI · 16th March 2005, 01:57 AM

1.My early interest was based on an evoultion from childhood/adolescent growth, as an American born Filipino, I visited the Philippines for my first time at the age of eleven, I still have a tourist Moro weaponry plaque from that trip.
As a young adult and into my old age, lol... martial arts, collecting, ethnography and anthropology have been ongoing hobbies.

2.I have an affinity for Philippine weaponry, but I like to study different blades, arms and armor in general to learn how they were used in actual combat.

3.The mythical naga is a predominant motif in Southeast Asian culture, but evidentally within each specific group traditions vary. Some stories appear as the serpent in motion or stillness, as a practical combat weapon the straight Moro kris would dominate over the traditional wavy blade, imho...

Antonio Cejunior · 16th March 2005, 02:42 AM

Thank you all, gentlemen, for your most interesting contributions.
The Naga is indeed something that I did not want to throw in for my lack of knowledge into this particular issue. But the entire realm of swords when viewed under a socio-anthropological and ethnological perspective have a magical conotation.

One other question I deem important.

A. Do you feel that you are frowned upon by the non initiated sword average citizen, friend, family?

B. How do you feel about the social acceptance of swords?

frowned upon
lack of interest
fear or weariness?

C. Therefore, do you think that swords are placed in a socio-cultural ghetto?

Thank you. It is great to be here.

Jim McDougall · 16th March 2005, 03:46 AM

Hello Antonio,
First of all I would like to join the others in welcoming you to the forum!
It appears you are already well known to quite a few of our members and it is wonderful to have you join us.There is a continually expanding core of knowledge and expertise here that grows with discussions and sharing information, and especially the steady addition of new members that share in our passion to learn.

It is wonderful to see the questions you have asked here! How could anyone resist responding to trying to remember what compelled us into this very esoteric and thoroughly empassioned obsession.

I would have to join many of the others reaching back to being a young boy, in my case being fascinated by tales of pirates, swashbucklers and cavalry charges! However even before being aware of these, I was always obsessed with organizing and learning, mostly history. I think from the time I realized that the swords I saw in dictionaries seemed to all have certain differences, and of course seeing them in the movies, led me to trying to catalog the various forms I saw. As I grew older and more interested in military history, I found several books of British military regulation swords. I was fascinated with trying to match the ones in the books to some I had found in old shops. I remember finding an old sabre at a swap meet and matching it to a photo in the book..I was hooked!

I think that the interest in ethnographic weapons came much later, as the regulation patterns became mundane and the ethnographic specimens that always appeared mostly as trophies or souveniers of military campaigns seemed elusive and mysterious. One such item is a pata that I have owned for over 30 years and seems to have taunted me in that time to discover more about it

As I studied more of military campaigns, the exotic and exciting places described became much more interesting than the typically bland military operations described and the tribal cultures became more and more fascinating and three dimensional. I learned that the ignorantly used term 'savages' was pitifully misplaced in most cases, and respresented simply gross misunderstanding of these cultures, and worse, the typically complete apathy often seen in trying to understand them.

I think what I have always found most frustrating is that in degree, the same apathy still resides often in the studies of anthropology, ethnography and related subjects when it comes to the study of weapons that are often virtually icons of the cultures studied. This is primarily of course related to not only the paranoia of political correctness, but the unfortunate increase in violence that has steadily permeated the world.
While many museums have put into storage valuable collections of weapons, and the topics of the importance of certain weapons culturally are often avoided in much published material, we here have sought to discover and preserve all we can of the histories of these weapons. We can only hope that better understanding of the importance of these weapons as important features of material culture rather than negative implements may bring them into the proper perspective.

I would leave the details of the more specific aspects of your questions on the keris and magical connotations imbued in these weapons to the outstanding scholars on that subject who reside here, and we have the best!!! However I did want to address the broader scope of your excellent questions and would like to thank you for placing them here. I know that it has not only reminded me of, but reinforced why I am here, and very proud to be in the distinguished company of the membership of this forum.

With very best regards,
Jim

Antonio Cejunior · 16th March 2005, 09:57 AM

Thank you Bill

Hello Jim

Your more than kind words of welcome. Indeed I have the privilege and pleasure to know some of the gentlemen and Dr. Ann Feuerbach from other places but the privilege is all mine.

What is impressive in this Forum is the quality of the posts as it seems that when one moves to a more specific area, we find genuine interest rather than sometimes bored participation, which is not so constructive at all.

Thank you for your contribution. It is so diverse and also it has a thread between all those that posted their reasons to be attracted to swords that it is indeed something that is worth all the applause.

In fact, the acknowledgement of childhood or adolescence fantasies (in the good sense) is a very great statement, for I refuse to be old, in the sense that I refuse to let the child in me be supressed. It will always manifest itself at will for that gives me a sense of freedom.

I have noticed the word exotic without any bad intention. It is in fact the right word that still lacks a substitute in our globalized world.

I do believe that we can still nurture hope. I have visited some museums in the US last year and they displayed swords and armours. It is however in the area of anthropological and enthnographical studies that more could be done.

I am sure that soon there will be some very interesting contributions.

I agree with the terrible stigma of calling any people or ethno-nation as savages when generally the advance of so called civilization has led to the increased detachment of the self called civilized man from Nature.

Hence that I place great importance in the study of ancient history of religions as well as of shamanistic practices.

I do think we live in a ghetto, but I believe that, done in the correct way, the ghetto will get increasingly populated until it reverses.

Wars are unfortunately almost inherent to mankind... we fail to achieve the simplest thing in the world: to live in Peace.

I do look forward to learning from everyone.

Very best regards,
Antonio

Andrew · 16th March 2005, 05:09 AM

A very thought-provoking thread, Antonio.

Quote:

Question 1
What is the real driving force behind your interest in swords? Was it initially based on an adult interest for ethnography and anthropology or was it originally based on and evolution from childhood or adolescent fantasy?

I've always liked swords and other weapons. 20 years of martial arts training combined with having a policeman for a father (guns, knives and other weapons were common in my home growing up) further stimulated my interest.

As an adult, my undergraduate studies in sociology and anthropology meshed well with my martial arts related interests. The end result was an interest in collecting edged weapons.

Quote:

Question 2
Is your particular interest in ethnographic weapons based on any specific reason?

a. such as being a national of the country from where those weapons are originated?
b. if not, what particular reasons are behind your attraction?

I'm a Korean stylist, so I ended up looking elsewhere for edged weapon inspriration, as information on Korean weapons was, at the time (pre internet for me) nearly non-existant. Japanese sword information was, comparitavely, abundant, and I began collecting gunto. I prefer older, "real" pieces, and I could afford these on a student's budget.

A few years ago, I picked up my first dha from ebay. Upon reciept, I was immediately attracted to the feel and look of the weapon, found this site through Google, and have liquidated nearly everything else in my collection to make room for more dha. In my studies of dha, I've grown to love learning about the peoples and cultures that use(d) them, and their history.

Quote:

Question 3
In some tribes of Africa, smiths are outcasts that live outside the village.
They are uncircumcised, therefore they posses both the masculine and the feminine, symbolically having the entirety which confers them, as in the Congo culture, the necessary protection to work iron, a product of Mother Earth's womb extraction.
This being said, some shapes may have a magical connotation. And I am referring specifically to the Kris, be it Indonesian, Malay or Philippino.
My question is divided into the following:

does the snake preside over its shape?
if that is true, does it mean to confer speed or just magic or some other meaning?
what is the meaning of the word kris?

I thank you for your contribution to my enlightment, gentlemen.
Best regards.

I'll defer to others more learned on this.

Andrew · 16th March 2005, 05:27 AM

Quote:

A. Do you feel that you are frowned upon by the non initiated sword average citizen, friend, family?

My interest is usually met with bemusement. Followed by intense boredom when I attempt to answer a question.

I can never shake the feeling that I'm percieved as a "sword nerd".

Quote:

B. How do you feel about the social acceptance of swords?

frowned upon
lack of interest
fear or weariness?

All of the above, from various people, at various times. Unfortunately, many see swords as only deadly weapons or, worse, as toys and novelties. The deeper and more significant truths are there to be seen and experienced, but so many miss it.

Quote:

C. Therefore, do you think that swords are placed in a socio-cultural ghetto?

In a sense, yes, but certainly less so in a country like the US which prizes weapons and the right to own them as fundamental.

Conogre · 16th March 2005, 08:26 AM

In response to your second set of queries, I think A and C can be answered together, with B being nearly the same.

Swords in general, at least here in the US, are currently in a rather unique position with a fairly large portion of the blue collar class currently showing more interest in them than at any time since the birth of our nation, largely influenced by the motion picture industry to the point that they are being sold en masse on the Home Shopping Channel.
To a lesser degree, historical and ethnographic swords are also experiencing a heyday due to the popularity of Rennaissance Fairs and educational television among some of the more intellectual circles as well.

The first and third questions, however, are in direct conflict with the views just given, particularly among the female members of society, as well as the pseudo-intellectual and passafistic portions of society, where they are viewed strictly as weapons of war and symbols of barbarism.

I singled out an extremely large portion of the female gender for a reason that's probably unconscious to most, that being bladed weapons, knives in particular, and with swords often seen as nothing more than exagerated knives, are the weapon of choice for rapists, thus have become a symbol of violent masculine aggression that I feel actually transcends the logical mind and hits directly at the subconscious in American women.
As an ex-police officer I think I can state almost categorically that swords and knives are not only condemned but are actually abhorrent, thus despised, to a much larger percentage of the public than many can even begin to comprehend.
If one looks deeply into this, the amazing part is that only bladed weapons in sporting, hunting or military dress inspire this insidious dread, with cutlery often exempt, due to their familiarity with the steel in this incarnation.
Surprisingly, women often seem much more willing to allow a firearm into the home rather than a knife or a sword, even though fatalaties in children are almost insignificant compared to accidental shootings.
Mike

Antonio Cejunior · 17th March 2005, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conogre

In response to your second set of queries, I think A and C can be answered together, with B being nearly the same.

Swords in general, at least here in the US, are currently in a rather unique position with a fairly large portion of the blue collar class currently showing more interest in them than at any time since the birth of our nation, largely influenced by the motion picture industry to the point that they are being sold en masse on the Home Shopping Channel.
To a lesser degree, historical and ethnographic swords are also experiencing a heyday due to the popularity of Rennaissance Fairs and educational television among some of the more intellectual circles as well.

Apologies for the delayed reply

We are at least 12 hours apart.
I can imagine the power of movies and the Shopping Channels. I've been to the US three times and saw some very funny Shopping programmes. I'm not used to it.

Different countries, different methods.

Quote:

The first and third questions, however, are in direct conflict with the views just given, particularly among the female members of society, as well as the pseudo-intellectual and passafistic portions of society, where they are viewed strictly as weapons of war and symbols of barbarism.

I singled out an extremely large portion of the female gender for a reason that's probably unconscious to most, that being bladed weapons, knives in particular, and with swords often seen as nothing more than exagerated knives, are the weapon of choice for rapists, thus have become a symbol of violent masculine aggression that I feel actually transcends the logical mind and hits directly at the subconscious in American women.
As an ex-police officer I think I can state almost categorically that swords and knives are not only condemned but are actually abhorrent, thus despised, to a much larger percentage of the public than many can even begin to comprehend.
If one looks deeply into this, the amazing part is that only bladed weapons in sporting, hunting or military dress inspire this insidious dread, with cutlery often exempt, due to their familiarity with the steel in this incarnation.
Surprisingly, women often seem much more willing to allow a firearm into the home rather than a knife or a sword, even though fatalaties in children are almost insignificant compared to accidental shootings.
Mike

Your views are certainly most enlightened by field experience due to your profession. I think they are quite open, direct, no-frills and should be, IMHO viewed in a very down-to-earth way.
Rapists and the likes can surely use a knife for the threat in a close quarter is very big. Sick minds, however...
Thank you sir, for your generous contribution.

Best

RSWORD · 17th March 2005, 12:38 AM

What a fabulous post. It is always interesting learning about our collecting peers from such a personal avenue as how we became hooked. I am a sword addict. I have been clean and sober for about 3 weeks now, however, their is a great show coming up in Baltimore and I am sure to fall off the wagon again. Why am I so hooked? Well, I have found education to be the culprit. Over the years as I have learned more and more about these objects, the deeper my appreciation and understanding have been and the more I desire. I can understand now why an appraiser on the antique road show can burst into tears upon examination of a rare and prized object. I would have thought them over sensitive just a few years back. In old swords, I find three wonderful aspects:
1) Their historical connetation. It is great having a tangible link to the past. To own an object that was carried at Waterloo, the Boxer Rebellion or any other famous battle or period elicits immediate flash backs to who might have carried this sword originally and what was their cause and how did they use this thing. I enjoy learning about the time period a sword is from and how it partook in that moment in history.

2) Their cultural connetation. I have learned more about other cultures through my collecting hobby than I ever would have a lifetime of living without them. Again, it is the educational process. The more you learn about a culture, the more you appreciate them. The more you learn about an object, the more you begin to appreciate it.

3) The craftmanship. These are objects of violence, war, freedom, self defense, costume and of course were crafted to function justly. Despite their lethality, they can be as delicately crafted as anything done by a jeweler or a lady embroiders. What a combination. To hold a sword that you know had its place in history, was made to be used, yet is as beautiful as any other art object, just leaves me flabbergasted.

Have I been outcast by society for being a collector of such objects. Not really. I know doctors that collect antique bedpans and I say "My God man, are you crazy!". Then, I pause, and think they might think the same about me. Therefore, certainly the bedpan collecting doctors don't look at me particularly crazily and I have yet to feel ostracized by anyone that I shared my collecting interests with.

Antonio Cejunior · 16th March 2005, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

My interest is usually met with bemusement. Followed by intense boredom when I attempt to answer a question.

It happened to me with Portuguese friends, never with Chinese friends.
My design students were very curious in seeing some of my swords, as I used Martial Arts to teach design principles.

Quote:

I can never shake the feeling that I'm percieved as a "sword nerd".

All of the above, from various people, at various times. Unfortunately, many see swords as only deadly weapons or, worse, as toys and novelties. The deeper and more significant truths are there to be seen and experienced, but so many miss it.

In a sense, yes, but certainly less so in a country like the US which prizes weapons and the right to own them as fundamental.

I quickly gave up trying to explain what a hamon was and just go about other areas of interests to our guests

In fact one of my early and most successful students collects cars and he just became pale the only time I unsheathed a sword to show him.
Please put it away, he said. It is indeed a very primitive (in the sense of unexplainable) fear that some have, which is definitely a barrier to the loss of prejudices.

Very best

Conogre,

I am in a busy period. Please kindly allow me a later reply to your most interesting reply full of field experience.
I will get back later

Kindest regards.

Spunjer · 16th March 2005, 04:46 PM

mr. cejunior,
it seems like you are well respected by some of the pillars of this forum. your questions are very thought provoking. if you may, i would like to answer those questions.

Quote:

Question 1
What is the real driving force behind your interest in swords? Was it initially based on an adult interest for ethnography and anthropology or was it originally based on and evolution from childhood or adolescent fantasy?

it was actually gradual. my fascination started while i was taking filipino martial arts. when i finally had the chance to go back to the philippines, i picked up some swords for souvenirs. didn't mess with it for awhile until last year, when i took it out of the closet and did some research on it. luckily, i found this website, and from then on, learned tons of info from some of the friendliest people i've met on and offline.

Quote:

Question 2
Is your particular interest in ethnographic weapons based on any specific reason?
a. such as being a national of the country from where those weapons are originated?
b. if not, what particular reasons are behind your attraction?

i would go with a.). i left philippines in my early teens an am now currently residing in the states. seeing these swords on my wall kinda give my home a piece of the old country while at the same time it gives my kids a daily reminder of where their other half came from.

Quote:

Question 3
In some tribes of Africa, smiths are outcasts that live outside the village.
They are uncircumcised, therefore they posses both the masculine and the feminine, symbolically having the entirety which confers them, as in the Congo culture, the necessary protection to work iron, a product of Mother Earth's womb extraction.
This being said, some shapes may have a magical connotation. And I am referring specifically to the Kris, be it Indonesian, Malay or Philippino.
My question is divided into the following:

* does the snake preside over its shape?
* if that is true, does it mean to confer speed or just magic or some other meaning?
* what is the meaning of the word kris?

i'm really interested to know the answers to those questions as well. since the moro kris was derived from the neighboring countries' swords, i don't think any pilipino can answer that

. the indonesians would prolly know, tho.

Quote:

One other question I deem important.

A. Do you feel that you are frowned upon by the non initiated sword average citizen, friend, family?

it's funny you mentioned that. i live in the midwest, known as the bible belt. the second ammendment in this here part of the country might as well be the elevnth commandment. needless to say, a lot of my friends are gun collectors, so they don't have a word to say about my hobby. as a matter of fact, it's starting to peak their interest. the way i approach this, is i tried to tie up the history of these weapons to theirs, i.e. krag vs. kris, the .45, etc. they actually appreciate seeing the weapons "of the other side".

Quote:

B. How do you feel about the social acceptance of swords?

* frowned upon
* lack of interest
* fear or weariness?

as a budding collector, i haven't heard any negative comments from people that knows about my hobby.

Quote:

C. Therefore, do you think that swords are placed in a socio-cultural ghetto?

in my current situation, i don't it is; on the other hand, martial arts in this here neck of the woods could be in that category...

once again, welcome and nice to meet you.

Antonio Cejunior · 17th March 2005, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

mr. cejunior,
it seems like you are well respected by some of the pillars of this forum. your questions are very thought provoking. if you may, i would like to answer those questions.

Greetings Spunjer,

It is only their good and kind eyes, nothing more

I am honored that you consider them the pillars of this forum. I have no hesitation in agreeing with you.

Quote:

it was actually gradual. my fascination started while i was taking filipino martial arts. when i finally had the chance to go back to the philippines, i picked up some swords for souvenirs. didn't mess with it for awhile until last year, when i took it out of the closet and did some research on it. luckily, i found this website, and from then on, learned tons of info from some of the friendliest people i've met on and offline.

This is a great way to start, isn't it? We do have things in the closet of our minds that a a moment just come out. Then I will also agree with you that this is the friendliest and most polite forum I have been to.

Quote:

i would go with a.). i left philippines in my early teens an am now currently residing in the states. seeing these swords on my wall kinda give my home a piece of the old country while at the same time it gives my kids a daily reminder of where their other half came from.
i'm really interested to know the answers to those questions as well. since the moro kris was derived from the neighboring countries' swords, i don't think any pilipino can answer that

. the indonesians would prolly know, tho.

Thank you for sharing. In fact keeping a connection to our roots is such an important thing. I presume that we will hopefully have a contribution for the clarification of the meaning of Kris.

Quote:

it's funny you mentioned that. i live in the midwest, known as the bible belt. the second ammendment in this here part of the country might as well be the elevnth commandment. needless to say, a lot of my friends are gun collectors, so they don't have a word to say about my hobby. as a matter of fact, it's starting to peak their interest. the way i approach this, is i tried to tie up the history of these weapons to theirs, i.e. krag vs. kris, the .45, etc. they actually appreciate seeing the weapons "of the other side".

as a budding collector, i haven't heard any negative comments from people that knows about my hobby.

in my current situation, i don't it is; on the other hand, martial arts in this here neck of the woods could be in that category...

once again, welcome and nice to meet you.

Thank you for the kind welcome. Nice to meet you too

I was wondering what is the meaning of bible belt ?
The sword is also more attractive to me, and for peaceful reasons as well.
I wonder if you succeeded in tying up your sword history with a colt or a smith and wesson.

Really curious. Thank you once again

15th March 2005, 02:37 PM	#1
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	A sociological and anthropological question Greetings all, I have been wanting to ask these apparently banale questions, but I am sure you will not take me wrongly, but will understand my own wish to understand others views. Therefore please do take these questions as motivated by the acknowledgement that we all live in different circumstances (I subscribe to the notion that we are actual a circumstance by nature, cultural and social environment) which prompt us to have different reasons. Question 1 What is the real driving force behind your interest in swords? Was it initially based on an adult interest for ethnography and anthropology or was it originally based on and evolution from childhood or adolescent fantasy? Question 2 Is your particular interest in ethnographic weapons based on any specific reason? a. such as being a national of the country from where those weapons are originated? b. if not, what particular reasons are behind your attraction? Question 3 In some tribes of Africa, smiths are outcasts that live outside the village. They are uncircumcised, therefore they posses both the masculine and the feminine, symbolically having the entirety which confers them, as in the Congo culture, the necessary protection to work iron, a product of Mother Earth's womb extraction. This being said, some shapes may have a magical connotation. And I am referring specifically to the Kris, be it Indonesian, Malay or Philippino. My question is divided into the following: does the snake preside over its shape? if that is true, does it mean to confer speed or just magic or some other meaning? what is the meaning of the word kris? I thank you for your contribution to my enlightment, gentlemen. Best regards.

15th March 2005, 03:57 PM	#3
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	how it started I imagine that many men experienced playing with swords, wood or otherwise; I must have started at 6 years of age, I grew up in Italy and still remember wanting and then getting as a gift a 'corrazza', or armor, a play set of course, with a breasplate, helmet, and saber. In those days (1948) in Italy they were made of real metal, and the whole set was very beautiful. Around age 14 I saw the movie "The 7 samurai" and was instantly taken by Japanese fencing. It wasn't until I was 18 years old and a senior in High school in New York City that I got a chance to study Kendo. I also got my first Japanese sword at that time, and practiced with it quite a lot. A few years ago I became interested in kerises, and that was partly because of the artistic side and partly because of the 'magic' aspect of these fascinating weapons. Perhaps you know that Africa is not the only place where blacksmiths are considered 'magical'; I have heard that in Europe, the blacksmith was the only person who, to swear an oath, was not compelled to do it on a bible; he could swear on his anvil. Even though the blacksmith had a touch of the 'diabolical' to be able to work iron, nobody accused him of witchcraft; no blacksmith, no tools, and no weapons! so the religious authorities turned a blind eye to blacksmiths, so it is said.

15th March 2005, 08:42 PM	#10
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Antonio I like your questions. They have some levels of reading them. Here are my answers. 1. I was rather old when I turned my interest to the ethno edged weapons. First I was fascinate with the craftsmanship, then with the history, but always it was a child in me, wanted to play! 2. I started collecting almost any ethnographic blade I could buy. When I realised that I couldn’t get not even one piece from any culture, I turned to my country and neighbour countries. At least I don’t give a damn about mass produced items. 3. The idea of magic powers of blacksmiths is very old. In Greek mythology, Hephaestus, the lame god of fire and anvil, protector of the craftsmen, one of the Olympians, once he made a magic throne and he entrapped Hera. Also Hephaestus manufactured amazing weapons like the thunderbolts for Zeus, the shield of Athena, the heart-piercing arrows of Eros and the invincible armour of Achilles. He was very ugly, but because of his abilities he married the goddess of beauty, Aphrodite! Of course she was unfaithful. The snake is an ancient universal symbol. Look Hermes in the first picture and Hercules in the other. I stop here. I don’t want to hurt anyone’s faith. I have no idea what “kris” means. Attached Images Last edited by Yannis; 15th March 2005 at 09:16 PM.

16th March 2005, 04:12 AM	#15
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Me, a wierdo? I always knew that music would be a great factor in my life; and after the army, I ended up studying for twelve years full time with the greatest exponent of Indian music, Ustad Ali Akbar Khan. I play, teach, compose, and perform world music, with an emphasis on Indian classical and folk music and African drumming and singing. I have pretty much all my life been thought of as 'different', to put it kindly; and I don't mind at all. My family thinks of my passions as a little strange, but ''That's dad, and we like him that way; never a dull moment!" as one of my daughters says. The views of the average citizen are not very important to me; I prefer the views of intelligent, well-educated, and tasteful people, which is why this forum interests me. 'Armi bianche', or 'white weapons' as blades and suchlike are called in Italy, have always interested me from the practical, artistic, and spiritual aspects. I also enjoy going to 'Renaissance fairs', where everybody is armed and usually VERY polite, weapons are appreciated, and where music of the type that I play is respected and enjoyed. If that's a 'socio-cultural ghetto', so be it. I'd rather be there than at a tractor pull! (That's a uniquely American pastime involving large vehicles, lots of burning of gasoline, and not much fun for the likes of me.) Since I belong to a nation that at present is prosecuting a war, I hardly think that John Q Public has much to say if I choose to appreciate swords, especially while strongly condemning wholesale slaughter, which I find tasteless, costly, and ineffective in solving social problems. And, as I mentioned before, I'm a veteran of the U.S. regular army. Whew! that was a good rant! Thank you for asking interesting questions.

16th March 2005, 02:42 AM	#20
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	The Naga Thank you all, gentlemen, for your most interesting contributions. The Naga is indeed something that I did not want to throw in for my lack of knowledge into this particular issue. But the entire realm of swords when viewed under a socio-anthropological and ethnological perspective have a magical conotation. One other question I deem important. A. Do you feel that you are frowned upon by the non initiated sword average citizen, friend, family? B. How do you feel about the social acceptance of swords? frowned upon lack of interest fear or weariness? C. Therefore, do you think that swords are placed in a socio-cultural ghetto? Thank you. It is great to be here.

15th March 2005, 03:40 PM	#2
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Antonio: Let me answer to your first and second question. In my case, I began interest with weapons just when I started to work in Museum. Earlier I was focused on much different, other historical things. With knowledge there came interest. You know, when you are able to see more, to answer questions, solve someone's "science" problems - then you realize the knowledge is weapon itself, and it began to satisfy you. Of course first of all I should be interest in my country's armament and history. It's closest to me, and when someone ask you about it, especially from aboard, then you realize how much there is still to discover, and that this is something you can really be proud. This proud and inclination to knowledge are something that still turn you on. But - very often this closest armament seems to be very ordinary to you. Then I like to take a look at something more exotic. I know very a little about Persian, Indian, or Indonesian weapons, but I like them very much, bacause there are different. This difference is a treasure to me, is something unknown, like from the other World - it's somehow a mistery - and it's attractive (in spite for someone's else is ordinary) Just few words from a thought Best regards

15th March 2005, 04:05 PM	#4
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Hello, Long time since we wrote! I have not forgot about you! Here's a different viewpoint: got started in blades because I had a boyfriend interested in knives and swords...basically boys like blades, I like boys, I learn about blades. (sorry any feminists out there, if there are any). I got the crucible steel remains as a "glass working conservation problem". I realized they were crucible steel and who could NOT be interested in studing crucible Damascus steel! What a amazing PhD research topic! There is a whole newish academic field of ethnoarchaeometallurgy, (studying the social/cultual aspects of ancient metallurgy). I will be looking into this now for the book. I have some info, in Islamic writing they refere to male (hard) and female (soft) iron. You combine the two to make crucible steel. There are a few good movies on African metallurgy and beliefs. Ann

15th March 2005, 05:12 PM	#6
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well, my reply will be probably the most psychotic one. I've realised that I like swords during the weapons qualification. I was holding a gun and it was oily, clearly mass produced cheapy. Then flash and bang. And then you don't even see what you hit, because 200 yards is too far away. I like sniper rifles, and I enjoy seeing the results of my shot, but still it's not the same as swinging a custom made blade. btw I don't know if I like swords. Sometimes it's just like the blade is talking to you, like you feel a connection, like it wants to _serve_. Concerning the family connection, yes, I did play with my grandfather's trench knife. Not a lot, cause my older brother got a scar from it, so it's kind of became off-limits. Since my mother's father was a megrelian Prince, I naturally always wanted a kindjal. So very soon I had a gazillion of them (since it was a good time to buy them). Recently I quietly sold nearly all of them to sponsor my other hobbies. The problem is that kindjals I really, really like are extremely rare - I basically like mechanical damascus.

15th March 2005, 04:10 PM	#8
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Thank you Wolviex. So we are colleagues. I was a Museum director for 20 years and kept a link by now being cultural consultant since 1998. In today's globalized world of information it is interesting that we still consider exotic things those that do not pertain to our specific culture or to the collection of cultures we became familiar with, thus assimilated it. Regards

15th March 2005, 04:46 PM	#9
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Hi Antonio, 1. Ethnography/Anthropology, from a very novice aspect without education in either. 2. Married to a Filipina. 3. Love to know the answer to this. The word Campilan is recorded by Pigafetta to describe a cutlass from Cebu, from a dialect that now has only a little in common with Cebuano; but it seems to have stuck as to describe a sword from Mindanao. Could "creese" have been simular, European translation from one dialect that became universal for Europeans to communicate with different groups. Personally I think the wavy blade developed from function rather than ritual or magical reasons. Here is some wild speculations. The cutting abilities of a wavy blade was good for removing heads. Perhaps the wavy blade was introduced from Indian or Arabs & adapted for function. Perhaps the Minangkabau had some role. Did they learn thier smith & mining from India or Sri Lanka? They appear to be one of the many "waves" that spread through region. As far as the "Moro" kris is concerned, they may have well had some influence as they had settlements in both Brunei & Celebes. Upon the arrival of the Europeans, Brunei seems to have been well armed, notable populations of both Chinese & Bugis & dominated most of the PI; at least untill the Spanish attacked them. Pure speculation but I believe the Bugis played a large roll with both the Keris & Kris but if they did, that role seems to have been lost. Ritual & supernatural aspects of the weapon seem more likely to have been processed in, following function, unpopular to say that, but my opinion.

16th March 2005, 03:17 AM	#12
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	A. Do you feel that you are frowned upon by the non initiated sword average citizen, friend, family? I've always been an oddball...amongst average citizens, friends and family, until I show that I've brought the artifacts into cultural and historical context through exhibits, educational conferences, ethnic presentations and martial arts, etc., guess it has to do with understanding. B. How do you feel about the social acceptance of swords? * frowned upon * lack of interest * fear or weariness? I'd say there is combination of negativeness, lack of interest and fear again among the average non initiated citizen unless you can show some sort of educational benefit. C. Therefore, do you think that swords are placed in a socio-cultural ghetto? In my experience, learning the art of the sword brings one to a higher level, intellectually and creatively speaking...like the kris/naga form which deals subconsciously with the realms of wisdom, but then again I'm an oddball...lol

16th March 2005, 03:20 AM	#14
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	A. Wife hates them, has seen plenty of bolo wounds working the ER is southern Visayas, daughter slightly amused. B. All three. C. Yes

15th March 2005, 09:04 PM	#17
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	INTERESTING QUESTIONS I WOULD HAVE TO ANSWER THE FIRST TWO QUESTIONS THE SAME. 1 &2 AS A CHILD I ALWAYS THOUGHT THE OLD PRIMATIVE TRIBAL WAYS OF DEPENDING ON YOUR WITS AND SKILLS WERE NEAT. I STILL FEEL THAT IN MANY WAYS THEY ARE MORE LOGICAL THAN TODAYS CIVILIZATION . I ALWAYS WANTED TO BE THE NATIVE HUNTER / WARRIOR INSTEAD OF THE GREAT WHITE HUNTER OR COWBOY SO IN MY CHILDHOOD FANTASY BEING TARZAN OR A INDIAN BRAVE WAS ALWAYS MY PREFRENCE. THE MASTERY OF STALKING AND PRIMATIVE WEAPONS WAS ALWAYS OF GREAT INTREST AND I LATER DEVELOPED A INTREST IN MORE MODERN EDGED WEAPONS. TO ME THE WEAPONS ARE OF SECONDARY IMPORTANCE TO THE CULTURES WHO PRODUCED THEM AND THE WAYS IN WHICH THEY WERE USED. QUESTIONS 3- THE TECKNIQUES USED IN MAKING WEAPONS WERE OFTEN ACCOMPANYED WITH RITUAL AND MAGIC, OR AT LEAST THAT WAS WHAT THOSE WHO WERE NOT INVOLVED IN MAKING THE WEAPONS BELIEVED. I THINK THESE OLD TRADITIONS AND BELIEFS WERE OFTEN ENCOURAGED BY THE CRAFTSMAN OR WITCHDOCTOR, A EARLY FORM OF MARKETING TAILSMAN OR MAGICAL WRITINGS WERE OFTEN ADDED TO WEAPONS SOMETIMES WHEN MADE OR PERHAPS BY THE WARRIOR TO DENOTE SOME SPECIAL VICTORY OR HIS TRIBAL TOTUM OR PROTECTIVE DIETY. SHAPES OF POWERFUL DIETYS, ELEMENTS OR SPIRITS WERE OFTEN USED IN MAKEING OR DECORATING WEAPONS. PERHAPS THE WAVEY BLADE SHAPE OF A KERIS MIGHT HAVE COME FROM A NAGA (SERPENT) OR A FLAME BOTH POWERFUL SYMBOLS.

15th March 2005, 11:23 PM	#18
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Like Barry, I was an early Edgar Rice Burroughs Tarzan fan, soon followed by Jon Carter of Mars, Conan and many others, all often thrown in together as "Swords and Sorcery"....it was through early Conan literature that I picked up on the fact that all of his fantastic peoples were actually drawn from history and pre-history. By having some Native American ancestry, I was drawn to spears, shields, knives and axes first, then, later to swords with firearms being my least favorite weapons to this day. As to snakes, it's only in western civilization that they have evil connotations, with most of the rest of the world revering them. Even in art, weapons are often paramount in statuary and paintings, plus many bladed pieces are indeed works of art unto themselves. Very well put questions, particualrly in regards to the "lowly blade". Mike

16th March 2005, 01:57 AM	#19
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	1.My early interest was based on an evoultion from childhood/adolescent growth, as an American born Filipino, I visited the Philippines for my first time at the age of eleven, I still have a tourist Moro weaponry plaque from that trip. As a young adult and into my old age, lol... martial arts, collecting, ethnography and anthropology have been ongoing hobbies. 2.I have an affinity for Philippine weaponry, but I like to study different blades, arms and armor in general to learn how they were used in actual combat. 3.The mythical naga is a predominant motif in Southeast Asian culture, but evidentally within each specific group traditions vary. Some stories appear as the serpent in motion or stillness, as a practical combat weapon the straight Moro kris would dominate over the traditional wavy blade, imho...

16th March 2005, 03:46 AM	#21
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Hello Antonio, First of all I would like to join the others in welcoming you to the forum! It appears you are already well known to quite a few of our members and it is wonderful to have you join us.There is a continually expanding core of knowledge and expertise here that grows with discussions and sharing information, and especially the steady addition of new members that share in our passion to learn. It is wonderful to see the questions you have asked here! How could anyone resist responding to trying to remember what compelled us into this very esoteric and thoroughly empassioned obsession. I would have to join many of the others reaching back to being a young boy, in my case being fascinated by tales of pirates, swashbucklers and cavalry charges! However even before being aware of these, I was always obsessed with organizing and learning, mostly history. I think from the time I realized that the swords I saw in dictionaries seemed to all have certain differences, and of course seeing them in the movies, led me to trying to catalog the various forms I saw. As I grew older and more interested in military history, I found several books of British military regulation swords. I was fascinated with trying to match the ones in the books to some I had found in old shops. I remember finding an old sabre at a swap meet and matching it to a photo in the book..I was hooked! I think that the interest in ethnographic weapons came much later, as the regulation patterns became mundane and the ethnographic specimens that always appeared mostly as trophies or souveniers of military campaigns seemed elusive and mysterious. One such item is a pata that I have owned for over 30 years and seems to have taunted me in that time to discover more about it As I studied more of military campaigns, the exotic and exciting places described became much more interesting than the typically bland military operations described and the tribal cultures became more and more fascinating and three dimensional. I learned that the ignorantly used term 'savages' was pitifully misplaced in most cases, and respresented simply gross misunderstanding of these cultures, and worse, the typically complete apathy often seen in trying to understand them. I think what I have always found most frustrating is that in degree, the same apathy still resides often in the studies of anthropology, ethnography and related subjects when it comes to the study of weapons that are often virtually icons of the cultures studied. This is primarily of course related to not only the paranoia of political correctness, but the unfortunate increase in violence that has steadily permeated the world. While many museums have put into storage valuable collections of weapons, and the topics of the importance of certain weapons culturally are often avoided in much published material, we here have sought to discover and preserve all we can of the histories of these weapons. We can only hope that better understanding of the importance of these weapons as important features of material culture rather than negative implements may bring them into the proper perspective. I would leave the details of the more specific aspects of your questions on the keris and magical connotations imbued in these weapons to the outstanding scholars on that subject who reside here, and we have the best!!! However I did want to address the broader scope of your excellent questions and would like to thank you for placing them here. I know that it has not only reminded me of, but reinforced why I am here, and very proud to be in the distinguished company of the membership of this forum. With very best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 16th March 2005 at 03:58 AM.

16th March 2005, 09:57 AM	#22
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Thank you gentlemen Thank you Bill Hello Jim Your more than kind words of welcome. Indeed I have the privilege and pleasure to know some of the gentlemen and Dr. Ann Feuerbach from other places but the privilege is all mine. What is impressive in this Forum is the quality of the posts as it seems that when one moves to a more specific area, we find genuine interest rather than sometimes bored participation, which is not so constructive at all. Thank you for your contribution. It is so diverse and also it has a thread between all those that posted their reasons to be attracted to swords that it is indeed something that is worth all the applause. In fact, the acknowledgement of childhood or adolescence fantasies (in the good sense) is a very great statement, for I refuse to be old, in the sense that I refuse to let the child in me be supressed. It will always manifest itself at will for that gives me a sense of freedom. I have noticed the word exotic without any bad intention. It is in fact the right word that still lacks a substitute in our globalized world. I do believe that we can still nurture hope. I have visited some museums in the US last year and they displayed swords and armours. It is however in the area of anthropological and enthnographical studies that more could be done. I am sure that soon there will be some very interesting contributions. I agree with the terrible stigma of calling any people or ethno-nation as savages when generally the advance of so called civilization has led to the increased detachment of the self called civilized man from Nature. Hence that I place great importance in the study of ancient history of religions as well as of shamanistic practices. I do think we live in a ghetto, but I believe that, done in the correct way, the ghetto will get increasingly populated until it reverses. Wars are unfortunately almost inherent to mankind... we fail to achieve the simplest thing in the world: to live in Peace. I do look forward to learning from everyone. Very best regards, Antonio

16th March 2005, 08:26 AM	#25
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	In response to your second set of queries, I think A and C can be answered together, with B being nearly the same. Swords in general, at least here in the US, are currently in a rather unique position with a fairly large portion of the blue collar class currently showing more interest in them than at any time since the birth of our nation, largely influenced by the motion picture industry to the point that they are being sold en masse on the Home Shopping Channel. To a lesser degree, historical and ethnographic swords are also experiencing a heyday due to the popularity of Rennaissance Fairs and educational television among some of the more intellectual circles as well. The first and third questions, however, are in direct conflict with the views just given, particularly among the female members of society, as well as the pseudo-intellectual and passafistic portions of society, where they are viewed strictly as weapons of war and symbols of barbarism. I singled out an extremely large portion of the female gender for a reason that's probably unconscious to most, that being bladed weapons, knives in particular, and with swords often seen as nothing more than exagerated knives, are the weapon of choice for rapists, thus have become a symbol of violent masculine aggression that I feel actually transcends the logical mind and hits directly at the subconscious in American women. As an ex-police officer I think I can state almost categorically that swords and knives are not only condemned but are actually abhorrent, thus despised, to a much larger percentage of the public than many can even begin to comprehend. If one looks deeply into this, the amazing part is that only bladed weapons in sporting, hunting or military dress inspire this insidious dread, with cutlery often exempt, due to their familiarity with the steel in this incarnation. Surprisingly, women often seem much more willing to allow a firearm into the home rather than a knife or a sword, even though fatalaties in children are almost insignificant compared to accidental shootings. Mike

17th March 2005, 12:38 AM	#27
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	What a fabulous post. It is always interesting learning about our collecting peers from such a personal avenue as how we became hooked. I am a sword addict. I have been clean and sober for about 3 weeks now, however, their is a great show coming up in Baltimore and I am sure to fall off the wagon again. Why am I so hooked? Well, I have found education to be the culprit. Over the years as I have learned more and more about these objects, the deeper my appreciation and understanding have been and the more I desire. I can understand now why an appraiser on the antique road show can burst into tears upon examination of a rare and prized object. I would have thought them over sensitive just a few years back. In old swords, I find three wonderful aspects: 1) Their historical connetation. It is great having a tangible link to the past. To own an object that was carried at Waterloo, the Boxer Rebellion or any other famous battle or period elicits immediate flash backs to who might have carried this sword originally and what was their cause and how did they use this thing. I enjoy learning about the time period a sword is from and how it partook in that moment in history. 2) Their cultural connetation. I have learned more about other cultures through my collecting hobby than I ever would have a lifetime of living without them. Again, it is the educational process. The more you learn about a culture, the more you appreciate them. The more you learn about an object, the more you begin to appreciate it. 3) The craftmanship. These are objects of violence, war, freedom, self defense, costume and of course were crafted to function justly. Despite their lethality, they can be as delicately crafted as anything done by a jeweler or a lady embroiders. What a combination. To hold a sword that you know had its place in history, was made to be used, yet is as beautiful as any other art object, just leaves me flabbergasted. Have I been outcast by society for being a collector of such objects. Not really. I know doctors that collect antique bedpans and I say "My God man, are you crazy!". Then, I pause, and think they might think the same about me. Therefore, certainly the bedpan collecting doctors don't look at me particularly crazily and I have yet to feel ostracized by anyone that I shared my collecting interests with.