Zaghnal

Emanuel · 14th May 2009, 09:17 PM

This piece ended recently on the bay. The seller copied one of Jim's old posts on the zaghnal without sourcing (to his credit, Jim's concise summary was italicized).

I was interested at first, but then a few things came back from mem storage. There were few talks about these zaghnal in past years, but there seemed to be a concensus that this type was put together from different pieces. The blade looks solid but is really short. The spike doesn't really belong, and the koftgari is often late 19th c. work. It is also quite different from examples in Stone and Egerton.
In the end the piece went for a fair penny, i'm inclined to thing way more than it is worth.

Is the above applicable to the piece herein or not? What more can be added?

Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 15th May 2009, 04:58 AM

Hi Emanuel,
I just wanted to thank you for the kind note on this. It's very nice to know my 'work' is recognized, and I often wonder how many of our posts are used as material on these type auction listings. While it is flattering in some ways, it is a bit disturbing to not be asked by the person using the material...clearly we would prefer not to be associated with an item of questionable integrity.

I'm really not sure on this zaghnal, and I think your assessment is actually quite well placed. While my study is primarily on the weapon forms, I think in most cases yourself and most of the other members actually handling these weapons are far more qualified than I to assess authenticity.

Thank you again Emanuel!
All the best,
Jim

Rick · 15th May 2009, 05:04 AM

I am not happy with this at all; I share Jim's reservations about misuse of the information given on this forum .

Gavin Nugent · 15th May 2009, 07:00 AM

I too think direct use of this information by others for publishing it wrong, I thought all material found with the pages was somewhat of a copyright to the original owner of the text.
Although these forums are here for the whole world to see, I certainly feel a lot more reserved in the text and images I would continue to post, especially the long QianLong Shuang Jian I thought of sharing.
I know from the website I currently have under construction, that I can to a large degree protect images and text with programming, text cannot be simply cut and paste. Although it does not stop text being copied, it certainly reduces this issue as only the dedicated would want to type word for word.
Perhaps some programming can be added to cater for this?

Just some idle thoughts.

Gav

katana · 15th May 2009, 01:36 PM

The seller is 'one of our own'....I am sure he didn't mean to cause offence....and I'm also sure that he was impressed enough to refer to Jim's comments directly....perhaps in hindsight he should have cited Jim as the 'author'.

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 15th May 2009, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

The seller is 'one of our own'....I am sure he didn't mean to cause offence....and I'm also sure that he was impressed enough to refer to Jim's comments directly....perhaps in hindsight he should have cited Jim as the 'author'.

Regards David

Hi David,
I am sure that the individual meant so harm, and as cognizant as we are around here on copyright and such matters, I am sure this instance was simply an oversight. As I mentioned, I am actually flattered that my work is found worthy of such use, so I hope that comments are not considered over reacting, its simply that I am a strong believer that courteous protocol would preclude misunderstandings.

I can understand concerns this issue may present to those who contribute here, but sincerely hope that everyone will continue to unabatedly continue our standard practice of openly sharing data, items and ideas as we always have. It is what sets us apart from others, and actually it has always been my intent that our threads would become essentially archives that might serve as benchmarks for future research and the benefit of collectors who seek information on weapons.

The simple matter is, follow the golden rule, and when in doubt, ask.

I would prefer to let the matter go at that......and assure everyone that there are no hard feelings here toward anyone. If the person who used this was 'off campus' I may have different feelings in the matter, but frankly I'm relieved the user was indeed 'one of us'....and actually pleases me that they found my work worth using

All very best regards,
Jim

roshan · 4th July 2009, 07:28 PM

Indian languages do not have the letter "z" as a native sound. Z is only found in words borrowed from Arabic, Persian or English. Most Indians will pronounce z as a j instead, as they do not have any sound that is closer to z. Indian scripts do not even have letters for z - in most writing systems, it is written as a J with a dot below it.

However, well educated, urban speakers will often pronounce the z's in borrowed Arabic or Persian words correctly - Hindus as a result of English language education, and Muslims as a result of Urdu.

The situation varies from region to region though. For example, in the Sindhi language, due to the use of Persian as an administrative language during precolonial times, z's and j's are always distinguished. In Punjabi, Hindi and Urdu the situation is as I described above (with urban speakers distinguishing and rural ones replacing), while in other languages, such as Gujarati, z is always replaced by j, although this could be changing due to the influence of Hindi/Urdu and because replacing z with j is regarded as a sign of being uneducated.

Hope this post has been informative.

Jim McDougall · 4th July 2009, 10:47 PM

Thank you so much Roshan! The languages and dialects of the Indian Subcontinent and regions into Central Asia are fascinating as well as formidable in trying to understand linguistically, especially for non-linguists like myself. I really appreciate you taking the time to explain so carefully and in detail. This information is indeed profoundly helpful.

It is also great to review the discussion in this thread, not only about the interesting weapon form, the zaghnal, but discussion of matters that are coincidentally a very prevalenent topic of late. I had forgotten about these discussions on this thread, and it is great to reread this material.

Thank you once again Roshan.

All the best,
Jim

ward · 4th July 2009, 10:54 PM

The reason pictures are pulled after a auction or sale is because cutomers request it. They may be publishing it a later date,reselling it a later date, or just want their privacy. It is not unusuall.

Regarding this type of zaghnal most of these are late late 19th-20th century they are ususally attached together by a screw system and the koftkagari is not particularly well done.

Jim McDougall · 4th July 2009, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

The reason pictures are pulled after a auction or sale is because cutomers request it. They may be publishing it a later date,reselling it a later date, or just want their privacy. It is not unusuall.

Regarding this type of zaghnal most of these are late late 19th-20th century they are ususally attached together by a screw system and the koftkagari is not particularly well done.

Very helpful information on both counts Ward, Thanks very much.

All the best,
Jim

14th May 2009, 09:17 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Zaghnal This piece ended recently on the bay. The seller copied one of Jim's old posts on the zaghnal without sourcing (to his credit, Jim's concise summary was italicized). I was interested at first, but then a few things came back from mem storage. There were few talks about these zaghnal in past years, but there seemed to be a concensus that this type was put together from different pieces. The blade looks solid but is really short. The spike doesn't really belong, and the koftgari is often late 19th c. work. It is also quite different from examples in Stone and Egerton. In the end the piece went for a fair penny, i'm inclined to thing way more than it is worth. Is the above applicable to the piece herein or not? What more can be added? Emanuel Attached Images

15th May 2009, 07:00 AM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Agree I too think direct use of this information by others for publishing it wrong, I thought all material found with the pages was somewhat of a copyright to the original owner of the text. Although these forums are here for the whole world to see, I certainly feel a lot more reserved in the text and images I would continue to post, especially the long QianLong Shuang Jian I thought of sharing. I know from the website I currently have under construction, that I can to a large degree protect images and text with programming, text cannot be simply cut and paste. Although it does not stop text being copied, it certainly reduces this issue as only the dedicated would want to type word for word. Perhaps some programming can be added to cater for this? Just some idle thoughts. Gav

15th May 2009, 04:58 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Emanuel, I just wanted to thank you for the kind note on this. It's very nice to know my 'work' is recognized, and I often wonder how many of our posts are used as material on these type auction listings. While it is flattering in some ways, it is a bit disturbing to not be asked by the person using the material...clearly we would prefer not to be associated with an item of questionable integrity. I'm really not sure on this zaghnal, and I think your assessment is actually quite well placed. While my study is primarily on the weapon forms, I think in most cases yourself and most of the other members actually handling these weapons are far more qualified than I to assess authenticity. Thank you again Emanuel! All the best, Jim

15th May 2009, 05:04 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I am not happy with this at all; I share Jim's reservations about misuse of the information given on this forum .

15th May 2009, 01:36 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	The seller is 'one of our own'....I am sure he didn't mean to cause offence....and I'm also sure that he was impressed enough to refer to Jim's comments directly....perhaps in hindsight he should have cited Jim as the 'author'. Regards David

4th July 2009, 07:28 PM	#7
roshan Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 20	Indian languages do not have the letter "z" as a native sound. Z is only found in words borrowed from Arabic, Persian or English. Most Indians will pronounce z as a j instead, as they do not have any sound that is closer to z. Indian scripts do not even have letters for z - in most writing systems, it is written as a J with a dot below it. However, well educated, urban speakers will often pronounce the z's in borrowed Arabic or Persian words correctly - Hindus as a result of English language education, and Muslims as a result of Urdu. The situation varies from region to region though. For example, in the Sindhi language, due to the use of Persian as an administrative language during precolonial times, z's and j's are always distinguished. In Punjabi, Hindi and Urdu the situation is as I described above (with urban speakers distinguishing and rural ones replacing), while in other languages, such as Gujarati, z is always replaced by j, although this could be changing due to the influence of Hindi/Urdu and because replacing z with j is regarded as a sign of being uneducated. Hope this post has been informative.

4th July 2009, 10:47 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Thank you so much Roshan! The languages and dialects of the Indian Subcontinent and regions into Central Asia are fascinating as well as formidable in trying to understand linguistically, especially for non-linguists like myself. I really appreciate you taking the time to explain so carefully and in detail. This information is indeed profoundly helpful. It is also great to review the discussion in this thread, not only about the interesting weapon form, the zaghnal, but discussion of matters that are coincidentally a very prevalenent topic of late. I had forgotten about these discussions on this thread, and it is great to reread this material. Thank you once again Roshan. All the best, Jim

4th July 2009, 10:54 PM	#9
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	The reason pictures are pulled after a auction or sale is because cutomers request it. They may be publishing it a later date,reselling it a later date, or just want their privacy. It is not unusuall. Regarding this type of zaghnal most of these are late late 19th-20th century they are ususally attached together by a screw system and the koftkagari is not particularly well done.