New Kilij

ariel · 17th June 2005, 10:55 PM

Just got it. It is very heavy, with silver /old leather scabbard and very bulbous rhino handle. The blade has minimal superficial pitting and narrow Yelman (truly sharp false edge), what is usually described as characteristic of old Kilijes. However, the fuller structure looks more Persian/Georgian/ Afghani, especially the three narrow fullers "stacked" in the middle. No inscription at all, no markings of any kind. It has a very old knot, that looks kind of Arabian. The crossguard is free and I cannot find any hole in it for the usual little nail.
Questions:
1. What is the origin of this Kilij?
2. Likely age?
3. Any locality for this particular kind of silverwork?
4. Any thoughts on the knot?
5. How to secure the crossguard and how to stabilize a (minimally) wobbly handle?
6. Any other comments, suggestions, ideas?

Yannis · 17th June 2005, 11:30 PM

Dear Ariel

If you ever want to sell it please think your friend Yannis

My opinion about this is:

The blade is second half of 19th century and so goes the rest of it.

Silver engravings of this artistic style was in use in Greece so it is possibly Greek. I asume who was the owner (not the person but the rank) but I have to check my books.

The knot is not what you think. It is a kind of belt (I dont know the english word). This kilij was hanged from the shoulder.

I wish I had it

M.carter · 18th June 2005, 03:34 AM

There is high probability that these thin kilijs are syrian, or even egyptian. Yet very little is known about these kilijs.

Whatever it is, its sweeeeeeet!

ham · 18th June 2005, 05:54 AM

Gentlemen,

This is Ottoman of the first half of the 19th century, the blade Persian and probably watered. It is provincial work, not done in Istanbul but perhaps in Suria or Egypt as M. Carter observes. As you know the cross would typically be secured by pitch, so stabilizing it would best be accomplished with a similar compound. It is difficult to tell from the images but the guard appears to be reversed 180 degrees in the plane of the quillons-- does it fit the scabbard properly when sheathed? If not, you might try flipping it.
The suspension system appears complete, it would be hung across the right shoulder and suspended on the left hip, cutting edge out. Appears to be a nice complete example.

Sincerely,

Ham

M.carter · 18th June 2005, 09:06 AM

It is almost impossible that the hilt slabs are insecure, as they are secured with rivets, so I would assume that the only wobbly part is the crossguard.

That can easily be fixed, first you must get some cutlers resin, or make some yourself. I usually make it out of pitch, beesewax, pinon rosin and steel dust. Melt the beesewax then add all the other ingredients on top carefully (very flammable stuff) then mix them all.

Secure the crossguard in its place, and cover the bottom openings of it with something (tape perhaps) as to not let the resin flow out. Then while the resin is hot and liquid, pour it into the crossguard, and let it cool quickly. Take the tape of the bottom after its cooled, and clean of any extra resin.

M.carter · 18th June 2005, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

Gentlemen,

This is Ottoman of the first half of the 19th century, the blade Persian and probably watered. It is provincial work, not done in Istanbul but perhaps in Suria or Egypt as M. Carter observes. As you know the cross would typically be secured by pitch, so stabilizing it would best be accomplished with a similar compound. It is difficult to tell from the images but the guard appears to be reversed 180 degrees in the plane of the quillons-- does it fit the scabbard properly when sheathed? If not, you might try flipping it.
The suspension system appears complete, it would be hung across the right shoulder and suspended on the left hip, cutting edge out. Appears to be a nice complete example.

Sincerely,

Ham

Ham, what makes you think that this is a Persian blade.

tom hyle · 18th June 2005, 12:34 PM

Rivetted scales get loose all the time; the main culprits are trauma and warping/expanding/shrinking of the fibrous organnic grip material from moisture exchange (mostly with the air). This type of sword tends to have a short (ie not full length) flat tang that may or may not be full width, rivetted to a plate that is soldered to the tangband. An arrangement like this seems more liable to wiggling than a true flat tang. If you don't want to tighten the rivets (and the holes may be wallowed out; one sure looks it, which complicates this) I suppose you might explore if you can do any good with wedges, shims, or injected adhesive/filler of some sort.
M Carter; what kind of pitch do you start with, and where do you get it, please

To the side, I have seen the pitch inside a tulwar handle be stabilized re-bar style with a matrix of wiggly copper wire.
Is a false edge that is not "dropped" (ie widened) a yelman? I have always heard and read the term yelman in association with the dropped edge.

ham · 18th June 2005, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.carter

Ham, what makes you think that this is a Persian blade.

This is a variant of 19th century Persian export blade. There is an excellent article by Oliver Pinchot which discusses them in detail, however it is hard to come by.
As far as stabilizing the guard, we have used modelling clay as an expedient and reversible fixitive for many years now with positive results.

Sincerely,

Ham

17th June 2005, 10:55 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	New Kilij Just got it. It is very heavy, with silver /old leather scabbard and very bulbous rhino handle. The blade has minimal superficial pitting and narrow Yelman (truly sharp false edge), what is usually described as characteristic of old Kilijes. However, the fuller structure looks more Persian/Georgian/ Afghani, especially the three narrow fullers "stacked" in the middle. No inscription at all, no markings of any kind. It has a very old knot, that looks kind of Arabian. The crossguard is free and I cannot find any hole in it for the usual little nail. Questions: 1. What is the origin of this Kilij? 2. Likely age? 3. Any locality for this particular kind of silverwork? 4. Any thoughts on the knot? 5. How to secure the crossguard and how to stabilize a (minimally) wobbly handle? 6. Any other comments, suggestions, ideas? Attached Images

17th June 2005, 11:30 PM	#2
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Dear Ariel If you ever want to sell it please think your friend Yannis My opinion about this is: The blade is second half of 19th century and so goes the rest of it. Silver engravings of this artistic style was in use in Greece so it is possibly Greek. I asume who was the owner (not the person but the rank) but I have to check my books. The knot is not what you think. It is a kind of belt (I dont know the english word). This kilij was hanged from the shoulder. I wish I had it

18th June 2005, 03:34 AM	#3
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	There is high probability that these thin kilijs are syrian, or even egyptian. Yet very little is known about these kilijs. Whatever it is, its sweeeeeeet!

18th June 2005, 05:54 AM	#4
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Gentlemen, This is Ottoman of the first half of the 19th century, the blade Persian and probably watered. It is provincial work, not done in Istanbul but perhaps in Suria or Egypt as M. Carter observes. As you know the cross would typically be secured by pitch, so stabilizing it would best be accomplished with a similar compound. It is difficult to tell from the images but the guard appears to be reversed 180 degrees in the plane of the quillons-- does it fit the scabbard properly when sheathed? If not, you might try flipping it. The suspension system appears complete, it would be hung across the right shoulder and suspended on the left hip, cutting edge out. Appears to be a nice complete example. Sincerely, Ham

18th June 2005, 09:06 AM	#5
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	It is almost impossible that the hilt slabs are insecure, as they are secured with rivets, so I would assume that the only wobbly part is the crossguard. That can easily be fixed, first you must get some cutlers resin, or make some yourself. I usually make it out of pitch, beesewax, pinon rosin and steel dust. Melt the beesewax then add all the other ingredients on top carefully (very flammable stuff) then mix them all. Secure the crossguard in its place, and cover the bottom openings of it with something (tape perhaps) as to not let the resin flow out. Then while the resin is hot and liquid, pour it into the crossguard, and let it cool quickly. Take the tape of the bottom after its cooled, and clean of any extra resin.

18th June 2005, 12:34 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Rivetted scales get loose all the time; the main culprits are trauma and warping/expanding/shrinking of the fibrous organnic grip material from moisture exchange (mostly with the air). This type of sword tends to have a short (ie not full length) flat tang that may or may not be full width, rivetted to a plate that is soldered to the tangband. An arrangement like this seems more liable to wiggling than a true flat tang. If you don't want to tighten the rivets (and the holes may be wallowed out; one sure looks it, which complicates this) I suppose you might explore if you can do any good with wedges, shims, or injected adhesive/filler of some sort. M Carter; what kind of pitch do you start with, and where do you get it, please To the side, I have seen the pitch inside a tulwar handle be stabilized re-bar style with a matrix of wiggly copper wire. Is a false edge that is not "dropped" (ie widened) a yelman? I have always heard and read the term yelman in association with the dropped edge.