I just couldn't wait!!!

[Gavin Nugent]

I just couldn't wait to post this Chinese Halberd.

I only won it about ten minutes ago and Fedex should have it to me in a week or so.

A lucky find I feel. When I first stumbled accross it, I did consult a learned collector of Chinese swords in Hong Kong to ask for the correct name of this piece, he called it a Ching Long Yan Yue dai dao, what this translates to in English I do not know but if anyone can help, it would be appreciated.
I am taken by the size and thickness of the blade, along with the unusual seven star inlays and the brass or gold??? inlay on the blade too, I do wonder if the gold on the blade represents fire from the dragon's mouth?

The dragon too is very nice and of good quality and a rather nice change from the usual flatter kind sometimes encountered.
It weighs in at about 27pounds and is 8'4"long, as I understand it, the halberd would have been kept in a temple in it's former life.

Comments and comparisons are most welcome and photos, text or pics from old books if anyone has them?

regards

Gav

[Jim McDougall]

I can well understand your excitement Gav, and I'd like to be the first to congratulate you!!! Well done!
While Chinese weapons are outside my usual field of study, I look forward to developing posts here to learn more on this exciting and likely very important example. I think you are extremely wise Gav, to move focus to follow your interest in Chinese weapon forms, which is truly often under represented in most arms discussions we are familiar with as well as published resources.

It's gonna be a long week Gav! and congratulations again!

All the best,
Jim

[Valjhun]

I do not know anything about them, but WOW!!!! I LIKE THAT!!!!

[josh stout]

What a nice piece. I think I can help you with the name somewhat. Ching Long is referring to the Qianlong dynasty (1736-1796). I cannot help with the dating, but it could well be true. “Yan Yue” (there are some alternate spellings) is the name for this weapon in the Imperial regulations, translating as “reclining moon”. “Dai dao” I think is a southern dialect version of da dao meaning just “big knife”. You could very properly refer to the halberd as simply a yan yue dao. More commonly, but less properly this would be called a gwandao in martial arts circles because of its association with the legendary General Gwan.
It appears to missing the but spike, which I would have been interested to see, but in general this is an amazing find. The quality is very high particularly in the dragon. Most look much more flat. Check to see if the eyes look like they are missing a bit. In some high end things, the eyes had a separate part designed to wobble around that is usually lost.
I think you have found an outstanding example of something that is quite hard to find in any condition.
Josh

[josh stout]

Just to be clear, there are examples like this that turn out to be decorative pieces for Chinese temples throughout the regions of the Chinese Diaspora, but mostly southern China and SEA. Check the blade for signs of folding. That will tell you if you are looking at a weapon or a ritual piece.

I think you are looking at a weapon, but when I look at that dragon I wonder a bit.
Josh

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks for coiming in Jim, Valjhun and Josh.

You are absolutely right Jim, it is going to be a long week and maybe longer if they take their time invoicing me. Thank you very much for the congratulations too, it is not very often such a rare piece pops it's head up in the world and it is nice to know average joe can still find them at very affordable prices.

As much as I like handling all types of swords and knives, since the birth of my son, it is time to focus on just one other interest which is my true calling, the Chinese weapons. I too am fasinated with the martial applications of such weapons.

Thanks too Valjhun, seeing it also gave me the WOW feeling too and I knew it just had to come home with me. The unusual always gets my vote.

Josh, glad you popped by with your input, lots to talk about with this one, and speculate too.

Thanks Rick, aka Rsword for taking an interest with my end of the world in email communication, as always, I am appreciative of all input that you have on a myriad of subjects.

Josh I was supprised and very happy to hear the Ching Long dating from my friend in Hong Kong. I have a lovely ivory foo dog censor from the Qianlong Dynasty with the seal mark of the era, so I wonder if I'll find a similar mark on this piece?

I immeadiately thought of the Kwandao in martial arts talk but this just seemed so much larger by proprtions that I had to ask further. The Hong Kong naming of this and Southern dialect connection you speak of makes sense.

A temple piece makes sense too as I am sure only royalty and the like could afford a huge weapon of such quality, I wouldn't expect the average soldier to walk with this monster constantly and I would imagine in most cases, a temple piece, although there are ceremonial examples only, a temple piece of this era should in fact be a weapon as well, but that's just my guess.

I think it is a weapon, although you comment on the dragon pointing elsewhere? I can see good forged quality in the steel and as there is no disk guard, the dragon does in fact appear to be that guard and the dragon from my eyes appears to be that of almost a basket hilt.

I have seen the bouncy eyes that you refer to also, I can't put my hands on where I saw them but if you can find a link, please do share it. I too saw the butt spike lacking but it didn't bother me at all. I may yet be pleasently surprised but a small simple one?

I'll be sure to add a lot more images in a week or two when it arrives, until then, I'd love to see more images from anywhere to compare with this if there are any?

Ivory Lion with mark is below

thanks

Gav

[Chris Evans]

Gavin,

Congratulations on the acquisition of a wonderful piece.

Cheers
Chris

[josh stout]

I doubt that you will find any overt reign marks but you never know.

Please post as much about this piece as you can. There is very little out there, and what I have seen is not usually as good as this one, so I just don't have much to go on.

The presence of pattern welding is the dividing line for me between weapons and display, but of course a high end temple piece could well be pattern welded, and some of the higher end "weapons" used in official military displays are not pattern welded.

Another possibility is that many martial arts schools have weapons racks for display and practice that often have over size examples.

I am still betting it is a nice example of a weapon from the imperial regulations, but we shall see.
Josh

[Mark]

I hate to be a wet blanket (and I hope I am wrong), but what is with the wobbly surface of the blade? It looks almost as if it is made of thinner metal and hollow, and suffered a few dings. The seven plugs or rivets through the blade add to my concern, as they appear to be more substantial and protruding than the typical "seven stars" inserts. I would be surprised to see such a thing connected to that lovely dragon guard, but the more I look at the blade the more I wonder.

[VANDOO]

I SUSPECT THIS WAS USED FOR CEREMONIAL PURPOSES IT MAY HAVE BEEN CARRIED IN PROCESSIONS BUT WAS PROBABLY KEPT IN SOME TEMPLE OR SHRINE MOST OF THE TIME. IT MAY HAVE A BLADE THAT IS SUITABLE FOR A WEAPON BUT TOO LARGE TO BE PRACTICAL, THE FITTINGS ARE NOT SUITABLE AND WAY TO ORNATE FOR A WEAPON. I COULD SEE THIS BEING CARRIED OR HELD BY A GIANT GAURD WITH NO SHIRT AT THE DOOR TO THE QUEENS QUARTERS OR AT A TEMPLE GATE (I'VE SEEN TOO MANY MOVIES )
I CAN NOT SEE IT BEING USED IN WARFARE, I SUSPECT THE BALANCE IS BAD AND THE SHAFT TOO WEAK AND LARGE FOR A PRACTICAL POLE ARM.
ALL THAT BEING SAID I DO LIKE IT AND IT DOES APPEAR TO BE A GOOD WELL MADE ANTIQUE ITEM AND IT IS DEFINITELY ETHONOGRAPHIC CHINESE CONGRADULATIONS ON A GREAT FIND. I LOOK FORWARD TO HEARING MORE ABOUT IT WHEN YOU RECEIVE IT.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Mark

I hate to be a wet blanket (and I hope I am wrong), but what is with the wobbly surface of the blade? It looks almost as if it is made of thinner metal and hollow, and suffered a few dings. The seven plugs or rivets through the blade add to my concern, as they appear to be more substantial and protruding than the typical "seven stars" inserts. I would be surprised to see such a thing connected to that lovely dragon guard, but the more I look at the blade the more I wonder.

Thanks Chris, Mark, Josh and Vandoo.

Mark, the wobbly surface? Hollow? Dings? I do hope you are wrong too. The spine looks very thick to me and I cannot see the issues you speak of, only a partial clean to parts of the steel.
I have seen so many different seven star configurations and I must say in my view, the usual plain brass inlay would look largly out of place and plain in my eyes and these stars seem to carry the more flamboyant theme that is consistant with the grand Qianlong Dynasty, more consistant with the flamboyant dragons head too.
I would be interested with regards to the seven star inlay to have comparison images made available to further inversigate, it just can't get here quick enough.

Josh I too don't think I'll see a reign mark but within the brass dragon or haft fittings, I may be surprised...
Royal or military displays do come to mind with this piece, I can visualise guards standing with their arms out stretched and these blades towering above them.

G'day Vandoo, thanks for coming in too. I too get caught in moments of HollyWood and old Kungfu movies when I see something like this.
I will tell more of it's possible practical nature when I get my hands on it, although it does look oversized, looking at the size of the haft, I do wonder if it better balanced than what first glances indicate and looking at the area where the tang is situated, it looks as though there could neary be a foot of steel inside that shaft so it may even be able to deliver a blow,not that I plan on knocking against anything...though I may just take in into the back yard and swing it wildly for a few minutes to get it out of my system.
I aggree that it is not a weapon of war and thanks for the congrats.

regards

Gav

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Gav,
While I have noted, these weapons are outside my usual field, I still share in the excitement while we await the arrival of your latest conquest!! I tried looking through what resources I have (including my treasured pile of Scott Rodell's catalogs!!) and found a little more on the history of these polearms.
As already discussed, the form of blade on this is termed 'guan dao' which is for the Chinese general Guan of Three kingdoms period (220-265 AD) with whom it is typically associated. It appears that there is some dispute on the first examples like this, and some insist they are first seen in the 7th century.

These are compared to the European fauchard, and in similar manner, some of the blades have been mounted in sword hilts, as in one example seen in one of the Rodell catalog's from 1995 (#1014/10). This example has a thinner blade, though of essentially the same basic profile.
Historically the Gen. Guan weapon was described as the 'green dragon crescent blade', and interestingly in more modern times, the Chinese infantry of the Han Green Standard Army used these weapons in Qing period.
The apparant lack of standardization suggested popularity in civilian martial arts, and it is noted that these were well known in Shaolin and Wudangquan schools of martial arts. (Wudang= refers to these mountains in Hubei province, quan= boxing or fist).

The extremely elaborate base holding the blade, of course suggests the ceremonial probability of this piece, as well as some of the observations on the blade features pending arrival, however, many votive or processional items from temples are very desirable (as this obviously!). If this proves to be such such an item out of a Shaolin temple and of Qianlong period it would be fantastic!!! ....doesnt need to be a 'combat' weapon.......has anyone ever seen what those Tibetan phur'pa go for ??!!

All the best,
Jim

[Mark]

These were the areas that concerned me. In the upper two areas, the surface looks sort of buckled (dented in and pulled out), more than I would expect on such a thick blade. In the lower area, again, the right edge seems to bulge up while to the left it is dented in. It could be the play of the light, but it looks more like a cumpling effect on a thin-walled hollow object than bends and grind marks on a solid one. It could be that the upper part of the blade thins considerably toward the edge, and it got badly bent, then bent back, creating the rippled effect.

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks for the data there Jim, great points of reference as always.
I wish I could obtain old reference catalogue such as these that you refer to. Do you have a scanner in that ole bus of yours? I'd love to see the image posted with the text provided

I do wonder if some of our more learned Chinese experts could step forth and comment too, Phillip, Yu-Ming Chang, Rsword, Dennee???

Thanks for the graphics too Mark, I have at many times wished I could add things like that to photos to better present detail.
It is quite possible that there is a warp at the edge of the blade where the arrows point but the other area is still speculation for me until I get it home.
If you look at the 4th pic I provided of the full length, that issue does not seem to be present, only when the camera moves closer that it appears as such. The 4th Pic is taken a distance and elevation to capture the full length, whilst the others are closer and the flash is more noticable.
I do wonder if that area has something to do with the glass in the cabinet with the lights shinning on the bowls/dishes within the cabinet causig a cresent of light on the blade that is due to a camera flash and these elements mentioned??
I will be sure to provide detailed images whatever the outcome.
Can anyone within the forum provide images of the type of inlay that is found on the blade for further dating and comparisions? Images for comparison of the simulated bamboo at the dragons neck may also be helpful.


thanks in advance

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

Just a quick update whilst I wait unsettled in my seat for this to arrive.
It has been a long night of international phone calls.
I have spoken further with my very helpful collector friend in Hong Kong via the net and when speaking of dates for this weapon I have discovered a communication breakdown that so often happens with language differences.
The Ching Long he referred to is not Qianlong but the Ching Dynasty. Dating from what was spoken of and what reference I have here would put this in my eyes at around 1850. I beleive he is looking for images from his end of the world to help too, I am very interested in viewing them should they surface.
I have attached a couple of pics of, although oldish, a far more modern martial arts set of pole arms to show where the dragon theme continued on. There is also a blade shape present in the photos that I remember seeing someone ask about a while back, it was at the time though of a Chinese but dismissed by another, if that thread is found, I think this may point to Chinese for it too.
I am also happy to say after speaking with both the auction house and the carrier there are no blade issues to be found upon this piece, sadly due to the size of the object it is still another week away

regards

Gav

[Valjhun]

Tatarattatataaaaa

I've just found the guy who possesed it... Who is he?

[Klas Larsson]

That is general Kuan (Gwan) mention above, also known as Kuan Ti (Guan Di) the God of War, and a protector deity, for homes, temples and other buildings. Can sometimes be seen sittings on a horse on roof tiles. Saw some real nice ones from Tang era at an exhibition a wile a go, see if I can find pictures. He is also a character in the old novels "Three Kingdoms", and a historical character.

About the hefty size, Peter Dekker wrote something on Yan Yue dao in the Qing military, and told they had very heavy ones for martial practice, quoting the military regulations books of Qing. Can not recall where he wrote this, maybe his website? Its at http://www.mandarinmansion.com/

Not saying this is one of those military examples, but it could still be a practice dao, as some of you already pointed out, its way to heavy for fighting, but can well build strength and develop correct body usage in martial practice.

And congratulations, this is really something extra!

[Gavin Nugent]

Images;

[Tim Simmons]

What a relief!!! worth all the nervous wait not to mention the total costs? It may have had stone or glass set in the eyes.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

What a relief!!! worth all the nervous wait not to mention the total costs? It may have had stone or glass set in the eyes.

Hi Tim,

It has been worth every restless anxious night.

It is quite possible that it could have been gem set eyes once upon a time. If I ever find a more complete example it will be the first thing I will look at.

Thank god for Fedex, otherwise I don't think I could have shipped it all the way to Australia. The delivery driver asked if it was something out of the Harry Potter movies

Any Jewellers amongst us that may have some insight into the eye settings, is it possible looking at them?

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

Okay this is the last piece of info I can currently provide about this particular polearm.

Any questions, please do ask.

The shaft from within the Dragon's mouth where the blade meets it, to the iron butt spike is 63 &1/2 inches. It is 2 inches in diameter which makes the distance around shaft about 6 & 3/4 inches. It is completely lacquered a earthy reddish colour, the colour reminds me of the red oxide paint I used in my trade years but with remnants of gloss in places. The timber itself is extremely hard, I cannot say what timber it is only that even if only the shaft hit you, you wouldn't get up.
At the base of the shaft there is a tapered iron ring lacquered the same colour as the shaft, it looks about 1/4 inch thick and is about two inches high and it is sleeved over the timber. At the end of the shaft and iron ring sits a very nice iron spike whose tip has been flattened over time. It has a number of sides that can be seen in the images that I will provide shortly. The spike measures 3 & 1/2 inches tall.

In answer to your questions about balance Josh, it is perfectly balanced at the point between the two iron pins on the Dragons mouth that hold the blade's tang and the shaft together.

I am in agreement that it is both a martial arts training weapon and a ceremonial display item. It could be used very effectively if the situation warranted it.
It has been noted by other authors that only the powerful and rich could ever afford a Kwan Dao so it does make me wonder whose hands have held this one over time as it is definitely the big brother to what examples I have seen. It has also been written that the heavier the better when it comes to Kwan Dao training as the heavy weights makes one use the proper structure in martial forms.
After taking this piece into the back yard and working with it short term there is absolutely no fumbling with this piece at all, it swings, pivots and turns with amazing agility despite the weight. The only draw back I feel is that the Dragons mane can and will catch you unaware when using it.
I could see a master of old using this in his training and most likely took pride and place within it's former home.

All for now

Gav

PS images soon

[Gavin Nugent]

Haft and spike images;

[josh stout]

I think you are very lucky to have found something like that. I have seen a few sets of temple pole arms like the (Vietnamese?) ones displayed earlier in this thread. Those examples are quite good for the type, and they generally go down in quality from there. Yours has the same feel in the decoration, but is much nicer. The heaviness, good balance, and sharp blade all indicate a training weapon.

My feeling is that it was custom made for a local master by village artisans. Despite the overall high quality, the fullers in one photo look wavy and shallow as is often seen in village work. The brass work is very sophisticated so it must have been a larger town with multiple craftsmen not just a village smith. The blade itself and "stars" are nice enough that I wonder if an assistant cut the fullers. As you mention, the owner must have been relatively wealthy to afford it, so I imagine it belonging to a fairly successful school as a training tool/display item. The style is similar to SEA Chinese Diaspora styles, but I think it is purely Chinese. My guess is it is from the South of China and was made by the same Fukienese/Hakka Chinese who made up much of the Diaspora.

The missing eyes were most likely separate pieces of brass on thin stalks designed to bobble around. I will look around to see if there are examples with gems or other decoration as well.
Josh