study of oriental arms in poland

[B.I]

hi,
wolviex rightly prevented a good post being diverted, but i thought it would good to create its own thread, in the hope that others will contribute. i had the opinion that it was thought that there was not much polish contribution to the study of oriental arms, which i have to disagree with. there is a strong passion for oriental arms in poland, and there is much respect for the academic study, and collections gathered there.

from jim -

"Szabla Zotnierza Polskiego XIX i XX wiek"
Aleksander Czerwinski and Leslaw Dudek, Warsaw, 1988

"Polish Arms, Side Arms" by Andrzej Nadolski, Warsaw, 1974

"Piec Wiekow Szabli Polskiej" by Wlodzimierz Kwasniewicz, Warsaw, 1993

"Ciecia Prawdziwa Szabla" by Wojciech Zablocki, Warsaw, 1989

and most valuable and of broader scope,
"Bron W Dawnej Polsce", by Dr. Zdzislaw Zygulski Jr. Warsaw, 1975

from tim -

Orez Perski. 2000. Museum Zamkowe W Malborku. ISBN 83-86206-31-4

from my library -

bron i uzbrojenie tatarow (outstanding study of tartar arms and armour)

collections of royal castle of wawel

arcydziela sztuki perskiej ze zbiorow polskich (good exhibition catalogue)

stara bron w polskich zbiorach (great book from polish collections)

wojna i pokoj (absolutely outstanding and comprehensive exhibition catalogue of ottoman arms - also published in english called 'war and peace'

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Brian,
Nicely done!! Thank you for redirecting this.
A short time ago we had a pretty good thread going concerning the development of the sabre, and I think there we pretty much realized the profound influence that oriental arms had on Polish and Hungarian weapons.
With this being the case, and the centuries of conflict between the Turks and Eastern Europe, it seems quite well placed that they have such an interest and understanding of these weapons.
It is also interesting that the famed hussar regiments developed from the Turkish 'sipahi' and eventually influenced the cavalries of all of Europe via Poland and Hungary.

While most of the books I cited had focus on the Polish weapons, the distinct oriental influence is key in the material.

Very best regards,
Jim

[wolviex]

B.I. - I should be the first one to thank you for this post. You and Jim made me happy and proud of the place where I live.

There is pure true in Jim's words about Turkish-Polish relations, which gave us understanding of their war/weapon culture. Many weapons was adopted from Ottoman Empire in 17th century here in Poland. Persian art proucts were very popular. Some of them (Turkish and Persian) even became Polish national weapons as karabela for example.

Tomorrow I'll bring you a list of Polish books on this topic. Anyway I hope to. Oriental researches in Poland were made on many plots, the weapons are the small one, while for real only prof. Zdzislaw Zygulski made most important job here. I will only tell here about great Persian exhibition (in 2001 year probably) in Krakow and Warsaw. Well, the oriental collections in Poland have their own history too. If you poses "Peace and War" catalog, there you will see few objects from my musuem collection (National Museum in Krakow, by the way)

Best regards and thank you once more!!

[B.I]

hi jim,
i agree, there is a very clear link between polish arms and armour and that of the regions further east. swords aside, you only have to see the polish or hungarian helmets to see the ottoman influence. i must admit a distinct lack of more european influenced references in my library, but i always aim for eastern european and surrounding countries as this similarity is very apparant.
unfortunately, the polish language is hard to pick through and it is frustrating when you know full well that the book you have holds important information, and yet all you can do is look at the pretty pictures.
wolviex would have an interesting and fulfilling (if not very well paid) change of career if he got into the book translation business

[wolviex]

B.I - with my English competence it would be a short career indeed

What can I say, of course I wont be able to tranlate for you every Polish book you'll pick, but I can offer you some help in hard and frustrating moments

[B.I]

hi wolviex,
your english is better than my polish and so you have the advantage. also, i would be careful about offering translation services so freely, or you will have the career change without the paycheque at the end of each month
the war and peace exhibition was wonderful and i really wish i had gone. the catalogue is fabulous and i will go through it soon and pick out the pieces from your museum. my copy of the catalogue is in polish unfortuantely, but i have access to other libraries and a friend has a copy of the english version, which i look at when i need a particular translation. i may take you up on your offer, but will do so carefully and wont push my luck
i look forward to your book list.

[ariel]

It is interesting that the best (available!) books on the subject of "Oriental" arms and armour are of European authorship: Persian weapons by Chodynski, Turkish by Astvatsaturyan, Indian and Arabian by Elgood , Indonesian by van Zonneveld, African by Spring, a whole slew by the Brits (Rawson, Robinson, Egerton, North) and , of course, encyclopedias by Stone , Blair/Tarassuk , and major works by Nicolle and Lebedynsky.
The Japanese wrote very extensively on their own weapons, but with this exception I am aware only of Pant's 3-volume set on Indian weapons and the new Ensiklopedia Kris (don't have it and forgot the name) as "native" books.
Is it because of the "academic pursuits" encouraged in the Western cultures or simply because we are just plain ignorant on the local scholarship?
Are there any truly important books on Oriental arms written by the native authors?
I do not want my input to be misconstrued as "Eurocentric" and dismissive of native scholarship; on the contrary, I really would like to get some info on important " horse's mouth" books.

[wolviex]

Originally Posted by B.I

hi wolviex,
your english is better than my polish and so you have the advantage. also, i would be careful about offering translation services so freely, or you will have the career change without the paycheque at the end of each month .

Oh come on, I'm idealist, and I don't need anything but the passion to survive.... do you think that's the reason I'm starving....




PS. Some of the books quote by you at the start, like "Szabla zolnierza polskiego" by Czerwinski and Dudek, or "Piec wiekow szabli polskiej" aren't about oriental arms , maybe, in the second book it is only mentioned but nothing more, I think

Regards!