Bugis keris

Bill · 10th March 2005, 07:53 PM

This poor guy has been bouncing around on ebay for some time. The dress looks receint, but the blade has appealed to me. Any comments, age?

DAHenkel · 10th March 2005, 10:30 PM

This keris is a Peninsular one - from Terengganu, however from the looks of it the blade is a very old Javanese one - most likely a trade blade. The dress is about mid-20th century and is of decent but not stellar quality.

nechesh · 14th March 2005, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

This keris is a Peninsular one - from Terengganu, however from the looks of it the blade is a very old Javanese one - most likely a trade blade. The dress is about mid-20th century and is of decent but not stellar quality.

Sorry Dave but, i'm not just trying to be contrary here. I realize this is a stickler point, but i have seen this kind of response coming up a bit lately. IMO, this this is a Javanese KERIS. It is the DRESS that is Peninsula. IMO it is the iron which is the keris. All else, regardless of how beautiful, is cultural presentation.

BluErf · 14th March 2005, 08:14 AM

The iron makes the keris blade, but the keris is a 'whole package' thing. The dress is as important as the blade.

Just like people. While Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are of extremely similar genetic makeup, its the 'cultural presentation' that makes one Chinese, Japanese or Korean. In fact, some Chinese have even crossed over to become Malay in my part of the world (Southeast Asia). They have a term for it "masuk Melayu". The same applies to Arabs and Indians who have, over the centuries, become integrated into the Malay identity and call themselves Malays.

Similarly, a keris blade (tilam upih for example) dressed in a Riau keris would be considered a Riau keris whereas the same blade dressed in a ladrangan Solo would be a Solonese keris.

The legendary Malay hero Hang Tuah went to Java in search of a keris. He found one -- Taming Sari -- and brought it back to Peninsula Malaysia. He dressed it in local sheath/handle styles as you can imagine he would not be caught dead wearing it with a Javanese ladrangan sheath in the Malay world. What is Taming Sari then? A Malay keris, as my fellow Malay friends would say.

tom hyle · 14th March 2005, 11:19 AM

Hmmmm "The blade IS the sword" I consider this a hard and fast rule, as far as my personal analyses go.
Now, I am not the most knowlegable here about the details of SE Asian culture, however, it seems to me to be particularly integral to the interactions of Oceanic East Asians with their swords (particularly k[e]ris and Nihon-to), from initial construction through simple maintanance and various re-dressings, including a single blade sometimes owning various dress for various occassions, that the sword is the blade and the dress is just that; dress, clothing, and any real man can tell you, the clothes do not make the man, and it's often considered unwise to think they do (as to judge a book by looking at its cover). Of course, with a sword the handle will influence its use, and the sheath will influence its protection, and I suppose it might even enjoy some jewellery, but all in all it remains the blade that truly is a sword.

nechesh · 14th March 2005, 11:32 AM

Sorry Kai Wee, but i respectfully disagree. I don't mean to suggest that dress is unimportant. That is certainly not the case. But the iron is always the MOST important part of the keris. Dress will be changed by time and circumstance, but the iron remains. If the owner a a keris pusaka falls on hard times he might be found to sell off the valuable parts of his dress, but the keris itself would be the last thing he lets go of. I would personally always give due respect to the empu of such a keris by referring to at as being from it's place of origin first rgardless of which culture it is dressed in. To me this is the only logical way to properly classify these weapons in a way that makes sense.
Why did Hang Tauh find it necessary to go to Jawa in search of a keris? He must have thought much of the skills of the Javanese empus. Do we then disregard their work and skills. IMO, Taming Sari would be a Javanese keris in Peninsula dress. I would have to respectively disagree with your Malay friends though i understand their sense of nationalism.

tom hyle · 14th March 2005, 11:44 AM

Lost track of something else; What thoughts on the slots in the blade? Could they be a later feature; a response to a hole wearing/etching through one or both fullers? I've certainly seen such holes (I'm sure I'm not the only one), and this blade is deeply etched (some of the layering lines are almost like fullers themselves). What is the etching like inside the edges of the slots; as deep as elsewhere?

10th March 2005, 07:53 PM	#1
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Bugis keris This poor guy has been bouncing around on ebay for some time. The dress looks receint, but the blade has appealed to me. Any comments, age? Attached Images Last edited by Bill; 10th March 2005 at 08:07 PM.

14th March 2005, 11:19 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Hmmmm "The blade IS the sword" I consider this a hard and fast rule, as far as my personal analyses go. Now, I am not the most knowlegable here about the details of SE Asian culture, however, it seems to me to be particularly integral to the interactions of Oceanic East Asians with their swords (particularly k[e]ris and Nihon-to), from initial construction through simple maintanance and various re-dressings, including a single blade sometimes owning various dress for various occassions, that the sword is the blade and the dress is just that; dress, clothing, and any real man can tell you, the clothes do not make the man, and it's often considered unwise to think they do (as to judge a book by looking at its cover). Of course, with a sword the handle will influence its use, and the sheath will influence its protection, and I suppose it might even enjoy some jewellery, but all in all it remains the blade that truly is a sword. Last edited by tom hyle; 14th March 2005 at 11:40 AM.

10th March 2005, 10:30 PM	#2
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	This keris is a Peninsular one - from Terengganu, however from the looks of it the blade is a very old Javanese one - most likely a trade blade. The dress is about mid-20th century and is of decent but not stellar quality.

14th March 2005, 08:14 AM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	The iron makes the keris blade, but the keris is a 'whole package' thing. The dress is as important as the blade. Just like people. While Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are of extremely similar genetic makeup, its the 'cultural presentation' that makes one Chinese, Japanese or Korean. In fact, some Chinese have even crossed over to become Malay in my part of the world (Southeast Asia). They have a term for it "masuk Melayu". The same applies to Arabs and Indians who have, over the centuries, become integrated into the Malay identity and call themselves Malays. Similarly, a keris blade (tilam upih for example) dressed in a Riau keris would be considered a Riau keris whereas the same blade dressed in a ladrangan Solo would be a Solonese keris. The legendary Malay hero Hang Tuah went to Java in search of a keris. He found one -- Taming Sari -- and brought it back to Peninsula Malaysia. He dressed it in local sheath/handle styles as you can imagine he would not be caught dead wearing it with a Javanese ladrangan sheath in the Malay world. What is Taming Sari then? A Malay keris, as my fellow Malay friends would say.

14th March 2005, 11:32 AM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Sorry Kai Wee, but i respectfully disagree. I don't mean to suggest that dress is unimportant. That is certainly not the case. But the iron is always the MOST important part of the keris. Dress will be changed by time and circumstance, but the iron remains. If the owner a a keris pusaka falls on hard times he might be found to sell off the valuable parts of his dress, but the keris itself would be the last thing he lets go of. I would personally always give due respect to the empu of such a keris by referring to at as being from it's place of origin first rgardless of which culture it is dressed in. To me this is the only logical way to properly classify these weapons in a way that makes sense. Why did Hang Tauh find it necessary to go to Jawa in search of a keris? He must have thought much of the skills of the Javanese empus. Do we then disregard their work and skills. IMO, Taming Sari would be a Javanese keris in Peninsula dress. I would have to respectively disagree with your Malay friends though i understand their sense of nationalism.

14th March 2005, 11:44 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Lost track of something else; What thoughts on the slots in the blade? Could they be a later feature; a response to a hole wearing/etching through one or both fullers? I've certainly seen such holes (I'm sure I'm not the only one), and this blade is deeply etched (some of the layering lines are almost like fullers themselves). What is the etching like inside the edges of the slots; as deep as elsewhere?