Filipino/Moro Martial Arts question...

KuKulzA28 · 16th April 2009, 12:01 AM

No toes are intended to be stepped on here.
I am not a practitioner of Filipino fighting.
I'm no master historian on this topic.

I've noticed that there's very little on Moro Martial Arts, call it Kali or Silat, and from the little I know, it seems they are often taught through family and is dying out in many places. I've also noticed different, mainly Visayan, fighting arts claiming to know, in addition to their native daggers, sticks, bolos, etc., how to use a weapon such as the Kampilan or barong.

The body can only move efficiently in certain ways and there's only so many viable fighting principles that can be applied - let us not get hung up on style too much. While I understand there can be a general categorization of blades and that similar principles apply to different blades - there's always subtleties and movements unique to the particular weapon. For example, a da-dao and a chang-dao may use similar movements, but one is a closer-range chopper, the other has a very long reach and a sharp point. It's user's tactics would be different. Or for example a rapier and a jian. Both are double-edged, long stabbing swords, but can slash and often require a lot of finesse to use effectively. However, the guard on rapiers is very different than that of the jian. The rapier also emphasizes a lot of thrusts, parrying, and in the old days, locks and daggers. The jian, while being similar, still emphasizes a lot of cutting, and is not commonly seen with a dagger which seems to be a very European take on the finesse-oriented fencing sword. They both had a similar role in their respective societies and battlefields though.
What I am saying is: did Visayans blend these Moro weapons with their styles of fighting, or apply Moro fighting to moro swords?

So while long-blade principles in Visayan arts may apply well to a Kris or Barong, would they have all the subtleties of the Moro practitioner? DO those even matter (except when two warriors would be fundamentally equal in skill)? Even if it looks different perhaps they both use the 'moro' sword effectively? Also, kris have been used all the way up to Luzon, even if slightly different, Spanish influenced, and of lesser quality. The Visayan area also had contact with Borneo and the Moros, where these 'Moro' weapons were "from". There is no doubt they had barongs and kris, and there's no doubt at all that they encountered them in battle.

I suspect no one knows the answer for sure, but maybe we can discuss?

kai · 16th April 2009, 03:22 AM

Hello Vinny,

Quote:

I've also noticed different, mainly Visayan, fighting arts claiming to know, in addition to their native daggers, sticks, bolos, etc., how to use a weapon such as the Kampilan or barong.

Well, IMVHO the key word here seems to be "claiming (to know)" - AFAIK it's quite often 2nd/n-th generation practitioners enthusiastically embracing well-known Moro weaponery rather than the widely-respected style founders and their direct long-time students...

In my experience, a garab is a completely different animal than, say, a barung. And from what little I've been able to glean, these 2 blades are employed very differently. There are enough sleek folks around and I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of just about anything they might pick up! However, there's still a fundamental difference between making something work and studying a traditional "tool" of any good MA system...

BTW, I still have to see any antique kerambit from the Philippines. Obviously, there are also "fashion" influences in MA circles...

Regards,
Kai

KuKulzA28 · 16th April 2009, 04:35 AM

A garab and a barong are SO different, I agree. However, its interesting you should mention these as I have never seen/watched anyone "native user" fight with either one. Pinutis, other pointed bolos, sansibars, and ginuntings seem more popular in the general arnis/eskrima/kali you see...
But do you see tenegre? Talibong? Sanduko? Bonafacio bolo? Kris? Barong? Kampilan? Pira? Nope... at least I haven't
__________________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Well, IMVHO the key word here seems to be "claiming (to know)" - AFAIK it's quite often 2nd/n-th generation practitioners enthusiastically embracing well-known Moro weaponery rather than the widely-respected style founders and their direct long-time students...

Interesting that they would turn around an embrace the Moro's (long-time enemies') weapons. I guess it is because the Moro are a sort of symbol of resistance. But I feel like the Moro's success had more to do with a more unified resistance as opposed to the myriad of tribal groups and small territories of most everyone else. A talibong or a pinuti doesn't look inferior to a kris or barong in my eyes - just different. Cebuano's, who have fought Moros for many many years, cannot have been significantly martially inferior to them... and with that in mind, they probably weren't that much inferior to the Spaniards militarily.
__________________________

Ah and of course, martial arts has all sorts of fashions... tactical fashion, super-traditionalist fashion, scientific fashion, no-combat-all-health fashion, meditative-philosophical fashion, moro-fashion, Butterfly-sword-fashion, Mixed-martial-arts-fashion, etc.etc.

fads are funny things, but very harmful sometimes

Maurice · 16th April 2009, 08:44 AM

Maybe you will find the answer overhere!

http://www.silat.tv/

Kind regards,
Maurice

David · 16th April 2009, 03:54 PM

AFAIK silat is specifically in reference to various Indonesian martial arts, not the Philippines. Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) that deal with weapons are generally described as Eskrima,Kali and Arnis de Máno. I believe Kali is the one specific to the Moro.

Maurice · 16th April 2009, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

AFAIK silat is specifically in reference to various Indonesian martial arts, not the Philippines. Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) that deal with weapons are generally described as Eskrima,Kali and Arnis de Máno. I believe Kali is the one specific to the Moro.

Yes, But on the link I posted earlier also Kali practitioners can be found. Not only silat styles!

David · 16th April 2009, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

I've noticed that there's very little on Moro Martial Arts, call it Kali or Silat, and from the little I know, it seems they are often taught through family and is dying out in many places.

Maurice, i was really responding mostly to KuKulz' statement in his original post.

Maurice · 16th April 2009, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Maurice, i was really responding mostly to KuKulz' statement in his original post.

OK David, I missed it.

t_c · 16th June 2009, 06:43 AM

Hi - Interesting topic, this is a little aside, but I thought I'd offer my two cents about the term "Kali" as I think it has been developing some false associations. These are just my own opinions/observations and I know these discussions can be contentious, so please understand that I don't mean any disrespect to anyone. (I'm open to being corrected.

)

The term Kali is not a tell-all as regards to where a style is from: i.e. Pekiti-Tirsia Kali. I've never heard anyone associated with PTK say that the style originates from the southern Philippines or is a Moro art. Personally I see the adoption of the term "Kali" for more cultural reasons: would you really want your nation's traditional martial arts referenced in the language of a colonial power? If I remember correctly Tuhon Leo Gaje first made this point during one of his pre-seminar talks.

In trying to recollect a discussion somewhere else in the binary stream, I believe it was said that Dan Inosanto was the first person who used the term in print in his book on FMA and then it took off in common usage from there. The term may be a fairly modern one.

I live in the US, and here, the only style that I have ever seen that I would consider to have influence from Silat is Villabrille Largusa Kali, and mainly because they use "cross-over" footwork similar to Sempok/Dembok in Silat (one foot steps in front or back of the other - from my experience a big no-no in other FMA - never cross your feet). Talking with an instructor of mine regarding that style, it appears that they do orient some of their movements towards dealing with heavier weapons which could be an indicator of Keris, etc (my inference - not my teacher's). But then again, the history page posted on the Villabrille Largusa site talks about Villabrille fighting a Moro Prince who practices Silat/Kuntao....

So if you are searching for info on Moro arts I would caution you in relying on the term "Kali" alone.

I hope someone has some good info for you though - I often been curious about the same subject. I think you are on the right track though with the connection between movement and light vs heavy weapon: very different games. Another avenue of research may be Borneo....

KuKulzA28 · 29th June 2009, 12:22 PM

Topic resurrection...

I was watching Mr. Cecil Quirino's "Crossing the Sulu Seas"... while it is somewhat old and patchy(?) it's a nice little documentary. It is interesting that Sali learned his martial art from a master in Sabah... which is on the northern tip of Borneo island... Are there not quite a few Moros there, adjacent to the Sultanate of Brunei? Perhaps you are right in suggesting Borneo as a place to research as well.

As MABAGANI said at the 14th post on topic: Barung(s) for you

Quote:

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

btw After studying Tausug Silat and the traditional use of the barung, I see no relation to what I've heard repeated over and over among some eskrima and arnis practitioners and the short stick or close range fighting systems, that their art is based on the barung, its been passed on as truth for as long as I can remember but needs a good hard look at reality among FMA teachers.

-------------------------------------------------

By the way... does anyone know which Filipino martial arts have the Samar Talibong/Garab as their main sword/bolo?
I know that Pulahan-Derobio Eskrima has the Leyte Sansibar as it's main weapon... and while many Leyte-folk are Waray like on Samar, the Sansibar is a very different blade than the heavier talibon/garab...

Dimasalang · 29th June 2009, 10:07 PM

Im not a believer in the term "Kali" also. It is a made up word...and now it has taken on many different associations. Also, to call Eskrima or Arnis "Kali" is not correct...this is my own personal belief. Eskrima/Arnis is a system developed by Christian Filipinos(most particularly from the Visayan region). To understand more you have to look deeper in history...and not necessarily FMA history but overall history. Everyone fails to realize the Moros were ruthless radical 'pirates'...and they dealt heavily in kidnapping for slavery and slave trading up until the Americans took over. Even in present day 2009, there is still instances of Moros kidnapping for slavery, particularly of christian Filipinos..it is in their culture to do so as some of them believe it is their religious right to do so. Looking back, one particular event where Visayan warriors trained in a type of system to fight the Moros was documented by the Spanish...look up Captain Juan de Chaves when he and 300 Spaniards along with 1000 Visayan warriors sailed to Mindanao to invade and take over Zamboanga in 1635. Fort Pilar was established, and from that period on, was nothing but battles and wars between the Spanish/Visayans and the Moros in Zamboanga history. It is important to keep in mind, the Spanish 'claimed' the Philippine islands, but they did not have full control of the southern region. Thousands of Moros have died fighting the Spanish, but they were in fact still undefeated by the Spanish. The Spanish prohibited 'Freedom of Religion'. If the Spanish had control over the Moros, there would be no more Philippine Moros...they all would have been killed off or converted to Catholics.

Much later, different Eskrima systems were developed and established by Christian Filipinos to protect their family, personal property, and land from these marauding Moros who would invade their coastal villages. It was not until the late 18 to early 1900s when these systems began to be documented and recorded. Being Cebu and southern Visayan regions were the major hot beds for piracy, you can see and understand why and how a martial art system came about and developed more drastically then any other part of the Philippines.

I just have to say also, we Filipinos are a proud race, and being of a mixed cross culture, we tend to try and find ourselves...meaning, trying to find the origin of our roots on what is authentic and original...what is truly Filipino in origin. And that sometimes means trying to meat out the Spanish and American influence. Some going as far as trying to eliminate Spanish terms, changing the name of Philippines, or bringing back the pre-spanish native writing script of Alibata/Baybayin...makes sense as to why some FMAs do not like the Spanish terms 'eskrima' or 'arnis'. The Filipino martial artist who are coming up with these new terms, like Kali and PRE-Spanish terms, are only trying to establish or set themselves apart as being so-called 'original and authentic' and purely Filipino with no outside influence(since any type of influence may seem unoriginal, mixed, and diluted)...this is nearly impossible. We have 300+ years of Spanish influence that can not be ignored, along with 100 years of American influence...and I dont see any type of system that has survived for 400+ years that can be slated as being 'original'. Unlike other cultures like the Chinese and Japanese, one thing we Filipinos lacked severely, recording and documentation in writing. Was there a Moro fighting system?...I am sure there was, but the "terms" and specific words for them within the Philippines are long gone, forgotten, and not remembered. In reality, there is no Kampilan, Kris, or Barong fighting system in Eskrima...like I mentioned, Eskrima is a martial art developed by Christians, it would make no sense for them to be using Muslim weaponry. I know many Eskrima banners carry the Moro Muslim weapon symbols...as I believe these symbols are there to honor and recognize their fight with the Moros and against these types of weapons...nothing else, they do not practice with any those weapons. And if they do use those weapons and call their art Eskrima, then that is something new and/or should be questioned. If you are wondering more about some type of Moro fighting system; as others have said, look to Borneo...at one point in the past; Sulu, Palawan, Mindanao, and Borneo were all seen as one and the same region. Many of the Moro Filipinos of the south associate and relate themselves more with Borneo then they do with the general Filipino population of the north and central regions.

Dimasalang · 29th June 2009, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

By the way... does anyone know which Filipino martial arts have the Samar Talibong/Garab as their main sword/bolo?
I know that Pulahan-Derobio Eskrima has the Leyte Sansibar as it's main weapon... and while many Leyte-folk are Waray like on Samar, the Sansibar is a very different blade than the heavier talibon/garab...

The Pulahan Derobio group "should" have incorporated the Talibong/Garab in to their system. I know this group well as its main HQ comes out of San Diego and I have been in a couple of their seminars. I believe they just don't know well enough or lack the weapons to train with them...they use what every other FMA has for training(a piece of aluminum).

In regards to other eskrima groups. Well, going by the famous Blind Princess fable...being she was from the Ganadara mountain region of Samar, she was a Pulahan. Her two famous renowned students were Floro Villabrille and Felicisimo Dizon. Dizon is still a great mystery in the Eskrima world, not much is really known about him...it is believed he was born in the 1890s and much older then all the other Grandmasters or masters of the early Eskrima era. He would later become the teacher of Antonio Ilustrisimo and Angel Cabales at the piers in Tondo Manila(~1930s?)...Tondo is the toughest and worst section of Manila even today. I believe they were not really hell bent on having precise weapons like the Garab/Talibong for training...so I really doubt their systems today incorporates them even though that is possibly the sword they used originally. Either way, you might want to check out any one of those systems to see their blade oriented techniques and if they may be still applicable to a Garab/Talibong. Hope that helps.

Tatang Ilustrisimo in his 90s demonstrating with live blades.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVnx0NHnekQ

16th April 2009, 12:01 AM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Filipino/Moro Martial Arts question... No toes are intended to be stepped on here. I am not a practitioner of Filipino fighting. I'm no master historian on this topic. I've noticed that there's very little on Moro Martial Arts, call it Kali or Silat, and from the little I know, it seems they are often taught through family and is dying out in many places. I've also noticed different, mainly Visayan, fighting arts claiming to know, in addition to their native daggers, sticks, bolos, etc., how to use a weapon such as the Kampilan or barong. The body can only move efficiently in certain ways and there's only so many viable fighting principles that can be applied - let us not get hung up on style too much. While I understand there can be a general categorization of blades and that similar principles apply to different blades - there's always subtleties and movements unique to the particular weapon. For example, a da-dao and a chang-dao may use similar movements, but one is a closer-range chopper, the other has a very long reach and a sharp point. It's user's tactics would be different. Or for example a rapier and a jian. Both are double-edged, long stabbing swords, but can slash and often require a lot of finesse to use effectively. However, the guard on rapiers is very different than that of the jian. The rapier also emphasizes a lot of thrusts, parrying, and in the old days, locks and daggers. The jian, while being similar, still emphasizes a lot of cutting, and is not commonly seen with a dagger which seems to be a very European take on the finesse-oriented fencing sword. They both had a similar role in their respective societies and battlefields though. What I am saying is: did Visayans blend these Moro weapons with their styles of fighting, or apply Moro fighting to moro swords? So while long-blade principles in Visayan arts may apply well to a Kris or Barong, would they have all the subtleties of the Moro practitioner? DO those even matter (except when two warriors would be fundamentally equal in skill)? Even if it looks different perhaps they both use the 'moro' sword effectively? Also, kris have been used all the way up to Luzon, even if slightly different, Spanish influenced, and of lesser quality. The Visayan area also had contact with Borneo and the Moros, where these 'Moro' weapons were "from". There is no doubt they had barongs and kris, and there's no doubt at all that they encountered them in battle. I suspect no one knows the answer for sure, but maybe we can discuss? Last edited by KuKulzA28; 16th April 2009 at 01:51 AM.

16th April 2009, 08:44 AM	#4
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,346	Maybe you will find the answer overhere! http://www.silat.tv/ Kind regards, Maurice Last edited by Maurice; 16th April 2009 at 11:46 AM.

29th June 2009, 10:07 PM	#11
Dimasalang Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 264	Im not a believer in the term "Kali" also. It is a made up word...and now it has taken on many different associations. Also, to call Eskrima or Arnis "Kali" is not correct...this is my own personal belief. Eskrima/Arnis is a system developed by Christian Filipinos(most particularly from the Visayan region). To understand more you have to look deeper in history...and not necessarily FMA history but overall history. Everyone fails to realize the Moros were ruthless radical 'pirates'...and they dealt heavily in kidnapping for slavery and slave trading up until the Americans took over. Even in present day 2009, there is still instances of Moros kidnapping for slavery, particularly of christian Filipinos..it is in their culture to do so as some of them believe it is their religious right to do so. Looking back, one particular event where Visayan warriors trained in a type of system to fight the Moros was documented by the Spanish...look up Captain Juan de Chaves when he and 300 Spaniards along with 1000 Visayan warriors sailed to Mindanao to invade and take over Zamboanga in 1635. Fort Pilar was established, and from that period on, was nothing but battles and wars between the Spanish/Visayans and the Moros in Zamboanga history. It is important to keep in mind, the Spanish 'claimed' the Philippine islands, but they did not have full control of the southern region. Thousands of Moros have died fighting the Spanish, but they were in fact still undefeated by the Spanish. The Spanish prohibited 'Freedom of Religion'. If the Spanish had control over the Moros, there would be no more Philippine Moros...they all would have been killed off or converted to Catholics. Much later, different Eskrima systems were developed and established by Christian Filipinos to protect their family, personal property, and land from these marauding Moros who would invade their coastal villages. It was not until the late 18 to early 1900s when these systems began to be documented and recorded. Being Cebu and southern Visayan regions were the major hot beds for piracy, you can see and understand why and how a martial art system came about and developed more drastically then any other part of the Philippines. I just have to say also, we Filipinos are a proud race, and being of a mixed cross culture, we tend to try and find ourselves...meaning, trying to find the origin of our roots on what is authentic and original...what is truly Filipino in origin. And that sometimes means trying to meat out the Spanish and American influence. Some going as far as trying to eliminate Spanish terms, changing the name of Philippines, or bringing back the pre-spanish native writing script of Alibata/Baybayin...makes sense as to why some FMAs do not like the Spanish terms 'eskrima' or 'arnis'. The Filipino martial artist who are coming up with these new terms, like Kali and PRE-Spanish terms, are only trying to establish or set themselves apart as being so-called 'original and authentic' and purely Filipino with no outside influence(since any type of influence may seem unoriginal, mixed, and diluted)...this is nearly impossible. We have 300+ years of Spanish influence that can not be ignored, along with 100 years of American influence...and I dont see any type of system that has survived for 400+ years that can be slated as being 'original'. Unlike other cultures like the Chinese and Japanese, one thing we Filipinos lacked severely, recording and documentation in writing. Was there a Moro fighting system?...I am sure there was, but the "terms" and specific words for them within the Philippines are long gone, forgotten, and not remembered. In reality, there is no Kampilan, Kris, or Barong fighting system in Eskrima...like I mentioned, Eskrima is a martial art developed by Christians, it would make no sense for them to be using Muslim weaponry. I know many Eskrima banners carry the Moro Muslim weapon symbols...as I believe these symbols are there to honor and recognize their fight with the Moros and against these types of weapons...nothing else, they do not practice with any those weapons. And if they do use those weapons and call their art Eskrima, then that is something new and/or should be questioned. If you are wondering more about some type of Moro fighting system; as others have said, look to Borneo...at one point in the past; Sulu, Palawan, Mindanao, and Borneo were all seen as one and the same region. Many of the Moro Filipinos of the south associate and relate themselves more with Borneo then they do with the general Filipino population of the north and central regions. Last edited by Dimasalang; 29th June 2009 at 10:20 PM.

16th April 2009, 03:54 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	AFAIK silat is specifically in reference to various Indonesian martial arts, not the Philippines. Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) that deal with weapons are generally described as Eskrima,Kali and Arnis de Máno. I believe Kali is the one specific to the Moro.

16th June 2009, 06:43 AM	#9
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	Hi - Interesting topic, this is a little aside, but I thought I'd offer my two cents about the term "Kali" as I think it has been developing some false associations. These are just my own opinions/observations and I know these discussions can be contentious, so please understand that I don't mean any disrespect to anyone. (I'm open to being corrected. ) The term Kali is not a tell-all as regards to where a style is from: i.e. Pekiti-Tirsia Kali. I've never heard anyone associated with PTK say that the style originates from the southern Philippines or is a Moro art. Personally I see the adoption of the term "Kali" for more cultural reasons: would you really want your nation's traditional martial arts referenced in the language of a colonial power? If I remember correctly Tuhon Leo Gaje first made this point during one of his pre-seminar talks. In trying to recollect a discussion somewhere else in the binary stream, I believe it was said that Dan Inosanto was the first person who used the term in print in his book on FMA and then it took off in common usage from there. The term may be a fairly modern one. I live in the US, and here, the only style that I have ever seen that I would consider to have influence from Silat is Villabrille Largusa Kali, and mainly because they use "cross-over" footwork similar to Sempok/Dembok in Silat (one foot steps in front or back of the other - from my experience a big no-no in other FMA - never cross your feet). Talking with an instructor of mine regarding that style, it appears that they do orient some of their movements towards dealing with heavier weapons which could be an indicator of Keris, etc (my inference - not my teacher's). But then again, the history page posted on the Villabrille Largusa site talks about Villabrille fighting a Moro Prince who practices Silat/Kuntao.... So if you are searching for info on Moro arts I would caution you in relying on the term "Kali" alone. I hope someone has some good info for you though - I often been curious about the same subject. I think you are on the right track though with the connection between movement and light vs heavy weapon: very different games. Another avenue of research may be Borneo....