Pinterest and other great source material

Marcus den toom · 8th July 2014, 09:17 PM

When googling for the Zeug Buch von Kaiser Maximilian I i found tons of great pictures on websites like Pinterest.
Most of them have been posted already, but it still holds an overwhelming amount of great source material

Enjoy, i know it will be a long night before i am going to sleep today (or tomorrow morning to be more precise)

http://www.pinterest.com/bullenwaech...illustrations/
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/567664728001183283/
http://www.pinterest.com/ladyshadow64/x-manuel/
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/253327547759782058/
http://www.pitt-rivers-museum.ox.ac.uk/blog.html
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/523473156657476209/
http://www.pinterest.com/kaymingo/landsknecht/
http://scagermanrenaissance.blogspot...n-artwork.html
http://scagermanrenaissance.blogspot...n-artwork.html
http://www.gruenenberg.ch/gruenenbergt3/index.php?id=41

Please also click to the right to see all the other pictures within the below link, there is more than one!!!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/biblio...n/photostream/

http://slideplayer.us/slide/203796/

and the search also brought me some death links with the image still on the google search engine:
found on http://www.lessingimages.com/search....p=1&ipp=24&s=r under the term Harquebusch, sadly now empty.

Matchlock · 9th July 2014, 12:47 PM

Hi Marcus,

I just noticed your thread and would like you to know that I am mighty proud of you, son!

You're sure doin' mighty fine!!!

I just wanted to add that the image you attached was taken in 1959, depicting the then exhibition array at the Wiener Waffenkammer, Kunsthistorisches Museum (The Vienna Arsenal of the Emperors belonging to the Habsburg family, and starting in the late 15th century as far as firearms are concerned).

I did extensive research and photo-documentary work there various times:
-http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ck+1540+emilia
post #3
- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...lock+harquebus
posts #1 and 5

The stock painted green on the Nuremberg haquebut inv.no. A 68 is a 20th c. replacement including the wood, and so are the blue paint on one lock plate and the black coating on some barrels. All that was done before 1959, and after early 16th c. watercolors for the illustrated inventories (German: Maximilianische Zeugbücher) of the Habsburg arsenals and armories in Tyrol, and by order of Maximilian I. The artists were Bartholomäus Freisleben and Jörg Kölderer.
Sorry, Marcus, for killing your euphoria ...
Telling the truth though, is exactly what I have set out to do.
Of course the thruth concerning many museums is often hard to bear - for the people in charge.

In the 1960's and early 1970's, a horribly vandalizing and irreversibly destructive action of ACID CLEANING took place in the Vienna Hofburg carried out by the Vienna restorers, and under the leadership of Dr. Bruno Thomas.
Just a few years later, Bruno Thomas changed his curatorial opinion and had the re-coloring removed.

Remember: Bruno Thomas was an internationally renowned capacity, and one of the leading armor experts of his time. And there was not need at all for that hasty action; all those barrels were preserved in finest possible original patinated and stable condition, protected by a yellowish layer of olive oil for abot 450 years! Up to the 1960's when all of a sudden, acid destroyed all original traces of the hammer and the rotating polishing stone - because that was the way of the Late Medieval barrelsmiths used to finish such large pieces. And of course, they got painted with layer of red lead minium; this was done for both protective and decorative reasons.

This is why I cannot restrain myself from calling such actions 'Casting out devils by Beelzebub' (from the German proverb Den Teufel mit dem Beelzebub austreiben) - REPLACING ONE EVIL WITH ANOTHER.

All of us are nothing but humans, and failable. Each single time I failed, made a mistake or did wrong my conscience strictly kept reminding me, and holding me responsible. And I told the truth right away, confessed to what I had done and took the consequences.
Because I KNEW I was responsible. Hiding a failure never actually works, or pays.
This is why feel that everybody muster that courage and strength, and be held responsible.
Position and responsibilty are inseparable.
'Ask too much of one, and both will die'
(Willie Nelson, The End Of Understanding).
No understanding.
No longer.
No.

Those Maximilian style colors combining the red and the shining light green are characteristic of almost all items of arts and crafts of the Late Gothic/Early Renaissance period of style, ca. 1450-1530. I have mentioned several times that they were the basic colors typical of the Gothic period (German: die Grundfarben der Gotik).
On firearms, we find these two bright colors employed most often between from ca. 1480 to 1530. They are also called the Maximilian colors, for it was the Habsburg Ruler Maximilian I (22 March 1459 - 12 January 1519). He was King from 1486 - 1508, and crowned Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire that latter year:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximil..._Roman_Emperor

At the sundown of the Middle Ages, and the dawning of the Renaissance period finally including the countries north from the Italian border, which mostly were Austria and Germany, Maximilian supported and promoted craftsmen, artists and artisans alike, both decidedly and in a completely new and open manner.
The replaced and painted stock Vienna was done after watercolors in the illuminated inventories (German: Maximilianische Zeugbücher) of the Habsburg arsenals and armories in Tyrol, and by order of Maximilian I.
The artists were Bartholomäus Freisleben and Jörg Kölderer.

I reattached them once more adding my own and copyrighted photos of 4 November 2002.

You will remember that the short and round 'Maximilian' style haquebut barrel showing the characteristic swamped and crown shaped octagonal muzzle section (German: Maximilianischer Krönlein-Mündungskopf) originally was part of a large, and most probably Nuremberg wrought series from the turn of the 15th to to 16th century.

Backed up by the Maximlian arsenal inventories, most barrels from that series should be termed as having been tiller barrels, and originally wrought with a long rear iron socket for a wooden tiller stock (cf. attachments #4 and #5).
Only one of these wrought iron barrels seems to be have been illustrated fully stocked, though:
cf. attachment #9!
On the other hand, the inventories provide several instances of cast brass/bronze barrels stocked that way:
cf. last three attachments!

Obviously, most of those were removed in the early 16th century, for being as impractical as obsolete very soon.
The only unaltered specimens the author could ever indentify are:
- 1 piece in the storage rooms of the Gäubodenmuseum of Straubing, Lower Bavaria
- 6 stocked haquebuts all mounted tretaining their original sockets! were found in a walled-up room at Kronburg Castle near Memmingen, Suabia/Bavaria in 1953.
They must have been restocked in ca. 1520.
All of them were preserved in SINGLULAR, because LITERALLY (NOT virtually!) - UNTOUCHED ORIGINAL CONDITION!!! They could not have been touched for hundreds of years!

One of them is inThe Michael Trömner Collection:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...nburg+haquebut

Please cf. three of my threads:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search...earchid=416270
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...nburg+haquebut
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...nburg+haquebut

A note to the moderators:
Our search button is not the best, to say the the last.
When I entered 'haquebut kronburg', this actual link was NOT shown:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...nburg+haquebut
The thread is on the Schloss Kronburg haquebut in my collection.

It only appeared upon entering 'bavarian haquebut kronburg' - in spite of my text in the thread actually reading 'Bavarian haquebut' and 'Schloss Kronburg"!

I have experienced the inferior 'quality' and malfunction of that button over the years ...

I therefore am most curious to read other members' experiences.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...barrels+passau

TO BE CONTINUED TOMORROW - please hang on;
I will respond to you soon as well, Andi and Marcus.

Best,
Michl/Michael

Marcus den toom · 9th July 2014, 07:44 PM

Thank you Michl, words like these inspire me to dig even further into the quit complicated matter of early firearms.

And no worries, i was already doubtfull of the authenticity of the colourfull haquebuts. When comparing the red minium of your fine stangenbüsche (i hope i spelled it correctly

) with that of the Wiener Waffenkammer i became sceptic and a bit sad about the haquebuts. Still they are haquebuts and the form (contours) are still pretty much original

Matchlock · 10th July 2014, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

Thank you Michl, words like these inspire me to dig even further into the quit complicated matter of early firearms.

And no worries, i was already doubtfull of the authenticity of the colourfull haquebuts. When comparing the red minium of your fine stangenbüsche (i hope i spelled it correctly

) with that of the Wiener Waffenkammer i became sceptic and a bit sad about the haquebuts. Still they are haquebuts and the form (contours) are still pretty much original

Well done, Marcus,

Your German is a zillion times better than my Nederlands (I even had to look that word up ...)

May I suggest replacing 'stangenbüsche' by Stangenbüchse?

Who cares for German anyway?

Best,
Michl

Marcus den toom · 10th July 2014, 11:42 AM

Your both correct, Stangenbüchse... but even more difficult, der/die/das/die Stangenbüchse (internet says "das"

) . I never have been good at gramatics, i even got only a 6 (out of 10) on my Dutch language exams and a 9 for English

My parents returned from there holiday and they also visited some German castles, among them Veste Lundinghausen. They have a haquebut, excavated from nearby, with a reproduction stock on it. The whole thing resembles the Maximilian style a bit, but it is not one of them. The touch hole is to close to the breech to be a Maximilian type among other things.... also it is octagonal, the pan is to big and the barrel mouth is to massive.

The last picture is the description of this haquebut by the castle. 1440 seems far from the truth, without looking at the thread Michl has provided us i would say at least 50 to 60 years later based on the pan (the most recent feature). The barrel might have been reworked during its life. The hook seems older to me..

Marcus den toom · 10th July 2014, 11:43 AM

some more,

Paddy T. · 29th July 2018, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

My parents returned from there holiday and they also visited some German castles, among them Veste Lundinghausen. They have a haquebut, excavated from nearby, with a reproduction stock on it. The whole thing resembles the Maximilian style a bit, but it is not one of them. The touch hole is to close to the breech to be a Maximilian type among other things.... also it is octagonal, the pan is to big and the barrel mouth is to massive.

The last picture is the description of this haquebut by the castle. 1440 seems far from the truth, without looking at the thread Michl has provided us i would say at least 50 to 60 years later based on the pan (the most recent feature). The barrel might have been reworked during its life. The hook seems older to me..

I know this haquebut, in fact it´s stored in the Museum Burg Vischering in the city of Lüdinghausen, Germany. The dating made by the museum (ca. 1440-1460) is wrong, of course. There are different stylistic criteria (unfortunatelly most of them not visible on the photos) to date this weapon to "ca. 1500". The stock is a reproduction, unfortunatelly there is no information about the finding location or the finding circumstances of this weapon.

Andi · 9th July 2014, 09:45 PM

May I invite you to visit my pinterest collection. I collect images of primary sources such as preserved originals and contemporary written and image sources. I tried to get as many informations as possible for each image.
You may also have a look at the album "PLEASE HELP" and I yould be very happy about any hints.

http://www.pinterest.com/bullenwaechter/

@ Marcus den Toom: Stangenbüchse

9th July 2014, 12:47 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Marcus, I just noticed your thread and would like you to know that I am mighty proud of you, son! You're sure doin' mighty fine!!! I just wanted to add that the image you attached was taken in 1959, depicting the then exhibition array at the Wiener Waffenkammer, Kunsthistorisches Museum (The Vienna Arsenal of the Emperors belonging to the Habsburg family, and starting in the late 15th century as far as firearms are concerned). I did extensive research and photo-documentary work there various times: -http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ck+1540+emilia post #3 - http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...lock+harquebus posts #1 and 5 The stock painted green on the Nuremberg haquebut inv.no. A 68 is a 20th c. replacement including the wood, and so are the blue paint on one lock plate and the black coating on some barrels. All that was done before 1959, and after early 16th c. watercolors for the illustrated inventories (German: Maximilianische Zeugbücher) of the Habsburg arsenals and armories in Tyrol, and by order of Maximilian I. The artists were Bartholomäus Freisleben and Jörg Kölderer. Sorry, Marcus, for killing your euphoria ... Telling the truth though, is exactly what I have set out to do. Of course the thruth concerning many museums is often hard to bear - for the people in charge. In the 1960's and early 1970's, a horribly vandalizing and irreversibly destructive action of ACID CLEANING took place in the Vienna Hofburg carried out by the Vienna restorers, and under the leadership of Dr. Bruno Thomas. Just a few years later, Bruno Thomas changed his curatorial opinion and had the re-coloring removed. Remember: Bruno Thomas was an internationally renowned capacity, and one of the leading armor experts of his time. And there was not need at all for that hasty action; all those barrels were preserved in finest possible original patinated and stable condition, protected by a yellowish layer of olive oil for abot 450 years! Up to the 1960's when all of a sudden, acid destroyed all original traces of the hammer and the rotating polishing stone - because that was the way of the Late Medieval barrelsmiths used to finish such large pieces. And of course, they got painted with layer of red lead minium; this was done for both protective and decorative reasons. This is why I cannot restrain myself from calling such actions 'Casting out devils by Beelzebub' (from the German proverb Den Teufel mit dem Beelzebub austreiben) - REPLACING ONE EVIL WITH ANOTHER. All of us are nothing but humans, and failable. Each single time I failed, made a mistake or did wrong my conscience strictly kept reminding me, and holding me responsible. And I told the truth right away, confessed to what I had done and took the consequences. Because I KNEW I was responsible. Hiding a failure never actually works, or pays. This is why feel that everybody muster that courage and strength, and be held responsible. Position and responsibilty are inseparable. 'Ask too much of one, and both will die' (Willie Nelson, The End Of Understanding). No understanding. No longer. No. Those Maximilian style colors combining the red and the shining light green are characteristic of almost all items of arts and crafts of the Late Gothic/Early Renaissance period of style, ca. 1450-1530. I have mentioned several times that they were the basic colors typical of the Gothic period (German: die Grundfarben der Gotik). On firearms, we find these two bright colors employed most often between from ca. 1480 to 1530. They are also called the Maximilian colors, for it was the Habsburg Ruler Maximilian I (22 March 1459 - 12 January 1519). He was King from 1486 - 1508, and crowned Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire that latter year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximil..._Roman_Emperor At the sundown of the Middle Ages, and the dawning of the Renaissance period finally including the countries north from the Italian border, which mostly were Austria and Germany, Maximilian supported and promoted craftsmen, artists and artisans alike, both decidedly and in a completely new and open manner. The replaced and painted stock Vienna was done after watercolors in the illuminated inventories (German: Maximilianische Zeugbücher) of the Habsburg arsenals and armories in Tyrol, and by order of Maximilian I. The artists were Bartholomäus Freisleben and Jörg Kölderer. I reattached them once more adding my own and copyrighted photos of 4 November 2002. You will remember that the short and round 'Maximilian' style haquebut barrel showing the characteristic swamped and crown shaped octagonal muzzle section (German: Maximilianischer Krönlein-Mündungskopf) originally was part of a large, and most probably Nuremberg wrought series from the turn of the 15th to to 16th century. Backed up by the Maximlian arsenal inventories, most barrels from that series should be termed as having been tiller barrels, and originally wrought with a long rear iron socket for a wooden tiller stock (cf. attachments #4 and #5). *Only one of these wrought iron* barrels seems to be have been illustrated fully stocked, though:** cf. attachment #9! On the other hand, the inventories provide several instances of cast brass/bronze barrels stocked that way: cf. last three attachments! Obviously, most of those were removed in the early 16th century, for being as impractical as obsolete very soon. The only unaltered specimens the author could ever indentify are: - 1 piece in the storage rooms of the Gäubodenmuseum of Straubing, Lower Bavaria - 6 stocked haquebuts all mounted tretaining their original sockets! were found in a walled-up room at Kronburg Castle near Memmingen, Suabia/Bavaria in 1953. They must have been restocked in ca. 1520. All of them were preserved in SINGLULAR, because LITERALLY (NOT virtually!) - UNTOUCHED ORIGINAL CONDITION!!! They could not have been touched for hundreds of years! One of them is inThe Michael Trömner Collection: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...nburg+haquebut Please cf. three of my threads: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search...earchid=416270 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...nburg+haquebut http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...nburg+haquebut A note to the moderators: *Our search button* is not the best, to say the the last.** When I entered 'haquebut kronburg', this actual link was NOT shown: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...nburg+haquebut The thread is on the Schloss Kronburg haquebut in my collection. It only appeared upon entering 'bavarian haquebut kronburg' - in spite of my text in the thread actually reading 'Bavarian haquebut' and 'Schloss Kronburg"! I have experienced the inferior 'quality' and malfunction of that button over the years ... I therefore am most curious to read other members' experiences. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...barrels+passau TO BE CONTINUED TOMORROW - please hang on; I will respond to you soon as well, Andi and Marcus. Best, Michl/Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 9th July 2014 at 11:40 PM.

8th July 2014, 09:17 PM	#1
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	Pinterest and other great source material When googling for the Zeug Buch von Kaiser Maximilian I i found tons of great pictures on websites like Pinterest. Most of them have been posted already, but it still holds an overwhelming amount of great source material Enjoy, i know it will be a long night before i am going to sleep today (or tomorrow morning to be more precise) http://www.pinterest.com/bullenwaech...illustrations/ http://www.pinterest.com/pin/567664728001183283/ http://www.pinterest.com/ladyshadow64/x-manuel/ http://www.pinterest.com/pin/253327547759782058/ http://www.pitt-rivers-museum.ox.ac.uk/blog.html http://www.pinterest.com/pin/523473156657476209/ http://www.pinterest.com/kaymingo/landsknecht/ http://scagermanrenaissance.blogspot...n-artwork.html http://scagermanrenaissance.blogspot...n-artwork.html http://www.gruenenberg.ch/gruenenbergt3/index.php?id=41 Please also click to the right to see all the other pictures within the below link, there is more than one!!! https://www.flickr.com/photos/biblio...n/photostream/ http://slideplayer.us/slide/203796/ and the search also brought me some death links with the image still on the google search engine: found on http://www.lessingimages.com/search....p=1&ipp=24&s=r under the term Harquebusch, sadly now empty.

9th July 2014, 07:44 PM	#3
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	Thank you Michl, words like these inspire me to dig even further into the quit complicated matter of early firearms. And no worries, i was already doubtfull of the authenticity of the colourfull haquebuts. When comparing the red minium of your fine stangenbüsche (i hope i spelled it correctly ) with that of the Wiener Waffenkammer i became sceptic and a bit sad about the haquebuts. Still they are haquebuts and the form (contours) are still pretty much original

10th July 2014, 11:42 AM	#5
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	a quick post before heading to my girl friend again :) Your both correct, Stangenbüchse... but even more difficult, der/die/das/die Stangenbüchse (internet says "das" ) . I never have been good at gramatics, i even got only a 6 (out of 10) on my Dutch language exams and a 9 for English My parents returned from there holiday and they also visited some German castles, among them Veste Lundinghausen. They have a haquebut, excavated from nearby, with a reproduction stock on it. The whole thing resembles the Maximilian style a bit, but it is not one of them. The touch hole is to close to the breech to be a Maximilian type among other things.... also it is octagonal, the pan is to big and the barrel mouth is to massive. The last picture is the description of this haquebut by the castle. 1440 seems far from the truth, without looking at the thread Michl has provided us i would say at least 50 to 60 years later based on the pan (the most recent feature). The barrel might have been reworked during its life. The hook seems older to me..

10th July 2014, 11:43 AM	#6
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	some more,

9th July 2014, 09:45 PM	#8
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	May I invite you to visit my pinterest collection. I collect images of primary sources such as preserved originals and contemporary written and image sources. I tried to get as many informations as possible for each image. You may also have a look at the album "PLEASE HELP" and I yould be very happy about any hints. http://www.pinterest.com/bullenwaechter/ @ Marcus den Toom: Stangenbüchse