18th Century Naval Sword Russian Polish? with anchors ? ID help

theswordcollector · 16th January 2016, 03:12 PM

Hello fellow collectors. Could anyone help ID this Naval sword I have? I purchased it many years ago with a naval collection but am unable to identify it for some time. The blade has a tilted anchor on both sides but there is no visible makers mark possibly obscure due to oxidation. I thought because of the hilt design this sword maybe Polish or Russian but I may be wrong ? , as the hilt is very similar to Polish period swords, but I am really not sure? If anyone has idea I would be grateful for information.The blade is 65.5cm or 25 3/4 inches long. The total length of the sword without the scabbard is 79 cm or 31 inches. The guard has 2 period or very old holes drilled as does the scabbard possibly for mounting an award or device or some other reason? like seen on Russian swords. It is a nice old war horse and has allot of wear, I hope some one out there or a fellow collector knows this model or has some input. Thank you :-)

CutlassCollector · 16th January 2016, 03:47 PM

Hi,

The blade is a close match to the French 1801 cutlass in shape and length. The large rounded anchor was added from 1803 and was in the early years diagonal across the blade. I'm not sure in what year the anchor became straight on the blade but it is much more common than the diagonal position.

According to Gilkerson this model of cutlass was copied by various other countries including Russia, not sure that would include the anchor though, so could possibly still be French fitted to new hilt?

CC

CutlassCollector · 24th January 2016, 07:37 PM

I thought I would bump this up as I am fairly sure this is another French Cutlass blade which found a new life.
It goes well with the barnyard saber find in the more recent thread.
CC

ulfberth · 24th January 2016, 10:05 PM

Hello,

the hilt is or is the same as a French infantry off sword of the Imperial Guards
as far as I know they did no use this in the French Navy.
The two holes in the langet is were the silver Napoleon head used to be.
The blade is as CC said the blade of a French troopers sabre d'abordage model 1811.

kind regards

Ulfbert

M ELEY · 25th January 2016, 12:23 AM

Hello CC. Didn't see this until now. Not much to add but conjecture. Both the cavalry style hilt and naval blade were contemporaries from the same period. They appear to likewise be a contemporary melding, not done many years later. Both have a nice, even patina and are fitted well, not some slipshod blacksmith job. I would propose that this assembly might have been made from spare parts as a private purchase piece for a merchantman or privateer. Yes, I know somewhere, there is a sigh of 'not this pirate stuff again from him!', but it does make sense Private purchase were always cast-offs, one-offs or older models reissued for later use. They were used in times of war (this piece nicely fitting into the Napoleonic period) and made at the cheapest cost. The look of this one would have been very appealing to an officer, but it could just as easily been one of a small batch. Common sense tells us an infantryman would never want an anchor on his sword blade, whereas private navies, who had no specific dress code, wouldn't mind the brass hilt and fine (by their standards) styling. I guess I just see maritime in everything!

Mark

Jim McDougall · 25th January 2016, 01:49 AM

Mark, you should never discount your observations which reflect astutely thinking 'outside the box' in the often vaguely understood topic of maritime esoterica.
Remember some years ago, and our brass hilt Wooley & Deakin sabres with the fluted ebony grips (1800-1803). While these were often identified as British cavalry swords in the 1970s, examples of these were by Durs Egg who notably produced for the navy.

"...cavalry swords have exercised considerable influence over naval weapons in many countries and neither Britain nor America has been an exception. The stirrup hilt popular in British naval circles from the late 1790s was taken from a cavalry original, together with the slightly curved blade with its single broad fuller. The development took place in the last quarter of the 18th c. and it is interesting to note that a similar development took place in France at about the same time. As a result some American naval officers wore swords which were derived from both British and French cavalry patterns".
"Naval Swords", P.G.W. Annis, 1970 p.13

As noted by CC, the Russians copied French patterns often profoundly.

While this hilt as Ulfberth points out is pretty much the French infantry pattern, that blade certainly appears of cutlass form and heavier than the pandour point infantry versions. ....the anchor itself not withstanding.

16th January 2016, 03:12 PM	#1
theswordcollector Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Berlin Posts: 48	18th Century Naval Sword Russian Polish? with anchors ? ID help Hello fellow collectors. Could anyone help ID this Naval sword I have? I purchased it many years ago with a naval collection but am unable to identify it for some time. The blade has a tilted anchor on both sides but there is no visible makers mark possibly obscure due to oxidation. I thought because of the hilt design this sword maybe Polish or Russian but I may be wrong ? , as the hilt is very similar to Polish period swords, but I am really not sure? If anyone has idea I would be grateful for information.The blade is 65.5cm or 25 3/4 inches long. The total length of the sword without the scabbard is 79 cm or 31 inches. The guard has 2 period or very old holes drilled as does the scabbard possibly for mounting an award or device or some other reason? like seen on Russian swords. It is a nice old war horse and has allot of wear, I hope some one out there or a fellow collector knows this model or has some input. Thank you :-) Attached Images

24th January 2016, 07:37 PM	#3
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 330	Another French cutlass blade I thought I would bump this up as I am fairly sure this is another French Cutlass blade which found a new life. It goes well with the barnyard saber find in the more recent thread. CC

24th January 2016, 10:05 PM	#4
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 400	Hello, the hilt is or is the same as a French infantry off sword of the Imperial Guards as far as I know they did no use this in the French Navy. The two holes in the langet is were the silver Napoleon head used to be. The blade is as CC said the blade of a French troopers sabre d'abordage model 1811. kind regards Ulfbert Attached Images

16th January 2016, 03:47 PM	#2
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 330	Hi, The blade is a close match to the French 1801 cutlass in shape and length. The large rounded anchor was added from 1803 and was in the early years diagonal across the blade. I'm not sure in what year the anchor became straight on the blade but it is much more common than the diagonal position. According to Gilkerson this model of cutlass was copied by various other countries including Russia, not sure that would include the anchor though, so could possibly still be French fitted to new hilt? CC

25th January 2016, 12:23 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,089	Hello CC. Didn't see this until now. Not much to add but conjecture. Both the cavalry style hilt and naval blade were contemporaries from the same period. They appear to likewise be a contemporary melding, not done many years later. Both have a nice, even patina and are fitted well, not some slipshod blacksmith job. I would propose that this assembly might have been made from spare parts as a private purchase piece for a merchantman or privateer. Yes, I know somewhere, there is a sigh of 'not this pirate stuff again from him!', but it does make sense Private purchase were always cast-offs, one-offs or older models reissued for later use. They were used in times of war (this piece nicely fitting into the Napoleonic period) and made at the cheapest cost. The look of this one would have been very appealing to an officer, but it could just as easily been one of a small batch. Common sense tells us an infantryman would never want an anchor on his sword blade, whereas private navies, who had no specific dress code, wouldn't mind the brass hilt and fine (by their standards) styling. I guess I just see maritime in everything! Mark

25th January 2016, 01:49 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Mark, you should never discount your observations which reflect astutely thinking 'outside the box' in the often vaguely understood topic of maritime esoterica. Remember some years ago, and our brass hilt Wooley & Deakin sabres with the fluted ebony grips (1800-1803). While these were often identified as British cavalry swords in the 1970s, examples of these were by Durs Egg who notably produced for the navy. "...cavalry swords have exercised considerable influence over naval weapons in many countries and neither Britain nor America has been an exception. The stirrup hilt popular in British naval circles from the late 1790s was taken from a cavalry original, together with the slightly curved blade with its single broad fuller. The development took place in the last quarter of the 18th c. and it is interesting to note that a similar development took place in France at about the same time. As a result some American naval officers wore swords which were derived from both British and French cavalry patterns". "Naval Swords", P.G.W. Annis, 1970 p.13 As noted by CC, the Russians copied French patterns often profoundly. While this hilt as Ulfberth points out is pretty much the French infantry pattern, that blade certainly appears of cutlass form and heavier than the pandour point infantry versions. ....the anchor itself not withstanding.