Torador barrel for comment.

Pukka Bundook · 15th August 2015, 02:30 PM

Morning Gentlemen,

A while ago I purchased this matchlock Torador barrel.
It is still in the UK at present, but would value opinions on it.
The first pictures are as it came into my friend and agent's hands, and the latter pictures are after a very light and not at all thorough cleaning.

I gather the bore is 'lovely and smooth' so that is pleasing!
Now, do you chaps have any idea where about it came from?
In Eggerton's book, there is a depiction of a barrel with quite similar decoration and attributed to Oude. Does this sound right ?

Any ideas of age? Yes, I do know dating any arms from India can be very difficult as the styles remained fairly static over long periods.
Overall length 52 inches.

Thank you for your time,

Richard.

Battara · 15th August 2015, 05:35 PM

Love the silver koftgari. Would be interesting to clean and etch to see if the barrel is a twist core damascus.

rickystl · 15th August 2015, 06:19 PM

Hi Pukka.
That is a really nice Torador barrel. With some very nice hammer decoration and silver mounts. Please do post additional photos after you receive the gun. I would like to see what the breech plug looks like. The barrel looks very early.

The pan appears to have been made without a movable cover. And your contact mentions the bore is in very good clean condition. Hmmm. After you receive the barrel, see if the outside patina on the barrel is the same color/shade all around. Or if it is a differnt shade of patina on the lower half (under portion) of the barrel, which would be the evidence the barrel was in a wood stock.
If the bore is in good shape, and the patina even the length of the barrel, it could be this barrel was completed, but never mounted to a gunstock. (?)

Your new pics will be interesting to see.
Rick.

Pukka Bundook · 16th August 2015, 04:23 AM

Battara,

Yes, the koftgari seems well done and a good thickness, unlike the modern version that shows up now.

Rick,
I have some extra photos I cam attach for you. Plug doesn't show well, and appears forged in place as to be expected.

The recoil lug appears to have been pulled out on this one, either through accident or yanking the barrel from the stock without removing the pin.
To answer your question;
It would Appear to have been in a stock at some time, but not at all recently.
I too was wondering about no provision for a pan cover. No answer on that!

You know I mentioned Oude as a possible place of origin?
well Googling that today, I found an interesting list of matchlocks and barrels From Oude.
These were taken at the surrender of Oude in 1859.
An interesting fact, is that many if not most of these are silver mounted, and have a 'belled muzzle".
These were in; "The Official Catalogue of the Museum of Artillery,
Rotund, Woolwich", by Brig. Gen J H LeFroy, RA FRS. 1864.

In all, 20 or so barrels/matchlocks are mentioned, and the very first has a 52" barrel like this one. I think all but 2 were "silver inlaid". These 2 being gold.
Interesting that one matchlock has in its description, "with a cover to the vent" which makes it sound like the others do not.

Please see link.

Richard.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=X8o...20Oude&f=false

rickystl · 16th August 2015, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Battara,

Yes, the koftgari seems well done and a good thickness, unlike the modern version that shows up now.

Rick,
I have some extra photos I cam attach for you. Plug doesn't show well, and appears forged in place as to be expected.

The recoil lug appears to have been pulled out on this one, either through accident or yanking the barrel from the stock without removing the pin.
To answer your question;
It would Appear to have been in a stock at some time, but not at all recently.
I too was wondering about no provision for a pan cover. No answer on that!

You know I mentioned Oude as a possible place of origin?
well Googling that today, I found an interesting list of matchlocks and barrels From Oude.
These were taken at the surrender of Oude in 1859.
An interesting fact, is that many if not most of these are silver mounted, and have a 'belled muzzle".
These were in; "The Official Catalogue of the Museum of Artillery,
Rotund, Woolwich", by Brig. Gen J H LeFroy, RA FRS. 1864.

In all, 20 or so barrels/matchlocks are mentioned, and the very first has a 52" barrel like this one. I think all but 2 were "silver inlaid". These 2 being gold.
Interesting that one matchlock has in its description, "with a cover to the vent" which makes it sound like the others do not.

Please see link.

Richard.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=X8o...20Oude&f=false

Hi Richard.
Thanks so much for your response. I was just wondering if your barrel was plugged in the same manner as Stewart's and mine. And it sounds like it is. I've seen one other variation of plugging the breech using a fairly thick, flat plate with a notch cut in for a rear sight. The plate is just slightly larger diameter than the breech of the barrel. The barrel they cut up in the "Mughal Matchlock" YouTube video had this style.
Sorry to hear your recoil lug is missing. But that seems to add proof that the barrel was mounted in a stock at some point.
Yes, it's obvious some of these barrels were made without pan covers. With the barrels being made so robust, I've wondered why the pan covers were made of such a thin piece of metal? It seems that most of the barrels you see today have the cover broke off. I'm going to have a new cover made for mine using a bit thicker iron, since mine is already missing.
Thanks for the Link with that list of guns. Super interesting!!! Especially the notes of barrel decoration.
By the way, the length of my barrel is 55.5".
Your barrel, with the silver work should display very well.
Rick.

Pukka Bundook · 16th August 2015, 05:22 PM

Rick,

I can fit another recoil lug, and will likely stock it up. It will not hurt the barrel at all to do so.
I wonder if the museum in the link has any on-line photos, And if they have any of these pieces still, from 1864....Indeed I wonder if the museum still exists!
Always something to look up!

I suppose the pan cover only need be sturdy enough to divert the match, but they do seem frail. I too would make one a little thicker.
On my homemade English matchlock, I added a 'front' to the pan, for extra security. (Read 'back' for an Indian matchlock, as the serpentine works the other way!)

15th August 2015, 02:30 PM	#1
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Torador barrel for comment. Morning Gentlemen, A while ago I purchased this matchlock Torador barrel. It is still in the UK at present, but would value opinions on it. The first pictures are as it came into my friend and agent's hands, and the latter pictures are after a very light and not at all thorough cleaning. I gather the bore is 'lovely and smooth' so that is pleasing! Now, do you chaps have any idea where about it came from? In Eggerton's book, there is a depiction of a barrel with quite similar decoration and attributed to Oude. Does this sound right ? Any ideas of age? Yes, I do know dating any arms from India can be very difficult as the styles remained fairly static over long periods. Overall length 52 inches. Thank you for your time, Richard. Attached Images

16th August 2015, 04:23 AM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Battara, Yes, the koftgari seems well done and a good thickness, unlike the modern version that shows up now. Rick, I have some extra photos I cam attach for you. Plug doesn't show well, and appears forged in place as to be expected. The recoil lug appears to have been pulled out on this one, either through accident or yanking the barrel from the stock without removing the pin. To answer your question; It would Appear to have been in a stock at some time, but not at all recently. I too was wondering about no provision for a pan cover. No answer on that! You know I mentioned Oude as a possible place of origin? well Googling that today, I found an interesting list of matchlocks and barrels From Oude. These were taken at the surrender of Oude in 1859. An interesting fact, is that many if not most of these are silver mounted, and have a 'belled muzzle". These were in; "The Official Catalogue of the Museum of Artillery, Rotund, Woolwich", by Brig. Gen J H LeFroy, RA FRS. 1864. In all, 20 or so barrels/matchlocks are mentioned, and the very first has a 52" barrel like this one. I think all but 2 were "silver inlaid". These 2 being gold. Interesting that one matchlock has in its description, "with a cover to the vent" which makes it sound like the others do not. Please see link. Richard. https://books.google.ca/books?id=X8o...20Oude&f=false Last edited by Pukka Bundook; 16th August 2015 at 04:29 AM. Reason: Removing an error!

16th August 2015, 05:22 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Rick, I can fit another recoil lug, and will likely stock it up. It will not hurt the barrel at all to do so. I wonder if the museum in the link has any on-line photos, And if they have any of these pieces still, from 1864....Indeed I wonder if the museum still exists! Always something to look up! I suppose the pan cover only need be sturdy enough to divert the match, but they do seem frail. I too would make one a little thicker. On my homemade English matchlock, I added a 'front' to the pan, for extra security. (Read 'back' for an Indian matchlock, as the serpentine works the other way!) Attached Images Last edited by Pukka Bundook; 16th August 2015 at 05:32 PM.

15th August 2015, 05:35 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Love the silver koftgari. Would be interesting to clean and etch to see if the barrel is a twist core damascus.

15th August 2015, 06:19 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Pukka. That is a really nice Torador barrel. With some very nice hammer decoration and silver mounts. Please do post additional photos after you receive the gun. I would like to see what the breech plug looks like. The barrel looks very early. The pan appears to have been made without a movable cover. And your contact mentions the bore is in very good clean condition. Hmmm. After you receive the barrel, see if the outside patina on the barrel is the same color/shade all around. Or if it is a differnt shade of patina on the lower half (under portion) of the barrel, which would be the evidence the barrel was in a wood stock. If the bore is in good shape, and the patina even the length of the barrel, it could be this barrel was completed, but never mounted to a gunstock. (?) Your new pics will be interesting to see. Rick.