Interesting Flyssa

[Emanuel]

This flyssa ended on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
It seems basic enough, lacking the usual brass ornamentations. This is also what makes it interesting, it has intricate carving on the blade...quite deep and different from the brass inlay. Its heavy look renders it older to my eyes than the beautiful decorated examples. Could this be an earlier example than the 1820s - early 19th century - or just one made by tribes not as skilled as the Ifflissen?
Any thoughts on this?
Emanuel

[ham]

Actually it is a yatagan. This form of blade is unusual but known, as is the integral bolster. As to dating, much more difficult to say. Yatagans remained in use in parts of the Ottoman Empire into the 20th century though this probably dates in the first half of the 19th. Eastern Anatolia judging from the decoration, grips look to have been replaced at some point. Nice example.

Ham

[Emanuel]

Hello Ham,
Thanks for the clarification. How interesting that this yataghan looks so much like a flyssa...for one thing the almost fully straight spine strongly recalls the flyssa...I've got to study these in more depth.
Emanuel

[ariel]

Originally Posted by ham

Actually it is a yatagan. This form of blade is unusual but known, as is the integral bolster. As to dating, much more difficult to say. Yatagans remained in use in parts of the Ottoman Empire into the 20th century though this probably dates in the first half of the 19th. Eastern Anatolia judging from the decoration, grips look to have been replaced at some point. Nice example.

Ham

Looks like Flyssa to me. The blade is heavier than most, but the configuration ( widening blade with sharp point) is typically Flyssa-like. I am unaware of Yataghans with such sharp point. The incisions look quite deep, but this may be an illusion of a close pic, and the motives look N. African to me. Are you basing your conclusion on the pommel? It does look eared, but the handle is a replacement, as you noticed.
Similar example from Artzi's "sold" index:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=545
I apologize if I was not allowed to post it.

[ham]

I hope from this example that some at least, have realised that the flyssa is a development off the yatagan, specialised as a cavalry weapon both for cutting and thrusting.

Ham

[Emanuel]

So this particul example would be a virtual "prototype" for the flyssa? It's nearly identical to the classic flyssa form...in that case, the whole weapon style would be attributed to Anatolia, not Algeria, would it not?
Are there more confirmed examples of this?

I still think it's a flyssa...and I'm still intrigued by the carving. And the grips are similar to those on this example http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=flyssa Replaced or original, they're still reminiscent of the brass camel head on finer flyssa like the one from Oriental-Arms.

Emanuel

[Jim McDougall]

I agree entirely with what Ham has, as always, very astutely observed.
It seems that the flyssa is one of a number of relatively late arrivals in the world of edged weapons, with another very similar (recalling years of debate) with unclear associations, being the so called 'Black Sea yataghan'.

Probably the earliest known examples of the Kabyle sword known as the 'flyssa' (for the Berber tribe associated with producing them, the Iflissen), are from c.1820's. The familiar examples often found today typically are of the form seen from c.1850's and usually have the brass stylized zoomorphic hilt and the blade inlaid with the characteristic geometric forms. The scroll type motif on this blade is notably atypical of Berber design, as has been noted.

It would seem that the Ottoman presence in North Africa clearly accounts for the influence in numerous weapon forms, particularly the flyssa, and it seems generally held that it did in fact evolve from earlier forms of yataghan with straight blade and deep belly at cutting point.

This example seems to be an excellent representation of the confluence of these distinct weapon forms. The presence of the many Caucasians in North Africa within the Ottoman sphere may account for the seemingly related horned yataghans that appear to be recurved cousins of the flyssa and as mentioned are commonly termed 'Black Sea yataghans'. While these curved swords, also deep bellied and with the needle point of the flyssa, are widely known throught Anatolia and Transcaucasia, there is at least one example of these with geometric North African markings (Tirri).
(here goes the hornets nest!!!
Seriously, I hope this doesnt draw out that really, really old tirade again...but it seemed important to illustrate the close associations of these forms.

All the best,
Jim

[ariel]

Originally Posted by ham

I hope from this example that some at least, have realised that the flyssa is a development off the yatagan, specialised as a cavalry weapon both for cutting and thrusting.

Ham

I, for one, never realized that flyssa is a development of a yataghan. Yataghans have recurved blades, flyssas have straight back and variable degree of widening/narrowing of the edge , but I do not think they can be called "recurved".
I've never seen a mention or a theory that the two were closely related.
Can you provide reference, please?