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16th July 2005, 10:32 PM | #1 |
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Indo-Persian sword with Wootz blade and parrot hilt
Hello,
My interest in Kopesh/Kopis-like blades got me this nice sword for which I yet have to find a name or any other details on its history - any suggestions/observations most welcome! Regards, Kai |
16th July 2005, 10:35 PM | #2 |
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Total length is 62.7 cm with 50.4 cm of Wootz/Bulat blade (that's almost 25" and 20") and a cast(?) metal hilt (21.2 cm or 8.3" including the reinforcements) with little silver Koftgari left. The grip scales are bone and have been painted (brownish body with traces of olive/green remaining on the head of the parrot).
The blade has a ricasso (4.6 cm/1.81") and a sharpened false edge (10.0 cm/4"). It has an hardly noticeable, forged central "fuller area" almost along the whole length (i.e. blade slightly thicker along the spine as well as towards the sharpened edges than along the center). Maximum thickness is 3.9 mm (2.5/16") with 3.4 mm (2.1/16") remaining at the base of the false edge. Blade height is 23.2 mm (0.91") at the base, flaring out to 30.9 mm (1.22") around the middle of the blade, and still 26.9 mm (1.06") high at the base of the false edge. Although it may have originated somewhere else, it was obtained from the Hyderabad region, a hotbed of So(us)sun Patta(h)s. However, the blade of this sword is about 1/3rd shorter than a regular blade of those larger cousins and just about everything else doesn't fit either... I don't have much experience with Indian arms and would appreciate any pointers or references! It was said to be late 18th century but please put forth your own estimates... Regards, Kai |
28th July 2005, 09:24 AM | #3 | |
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BTTT :-)
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None of the many knowledgeable forumites specialising in Indo-Persian blades coming to the rescue? TIA! Regards, Kai |
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28th July 2005, 01:12 PM | #4 |
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Hi Kai,
Do you know if the blade has a tang? True what you write that the blade has a bit Kopis/Soussan Patta/Yatagan to it. The blade seems to be rather short, do you think it can have been broken close to the hilt? You write that you got it from the Hyderabad region. Do you mean Hyderabad in Sind or in Deccan? Somewhere in one of my books I think I have a picture of a blade like yours, I will have to have a look. The bird on the hilt could be a parrot, but it could also be a hawk or a falcon, it is hard to say, but it is true that they often used a parrot. Jens |
29th July 2005, 02:16 AM | #5 | |||||
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Hi Jens, Thanks for your input!
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Possibly a boy's blade? I know it's the usual disingenous ad hoc assumption but the grip is also a bit on the small side. Quote:
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Regards, Kai |
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13th November 2005, 12:37 PM | #6 |
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BTTT
Jens, did you come across that pic you remembered from one of your books?
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5th December 2005, 05:05 PM | #7 |
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similar blade
Hello Kai!!
5 years ago i bought this sword in Istambul, the seller told me this sword was from Iran. i think this sword have a similar blade than your. I´m sorry for my english!!. regards!! |
5th December 2005, 09:55 PM | #8 |
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Hello Kai,
I could not resist coming in on this as it recalled some discussions we had on a chopping sword with vague similarities last June. I recall that initially I was inclined to presume NW frontier regions as the knuckleguard etc recalled a variant form of the Khyber knife...but later realized the form was distinctly of southern regions of India. Actually Pant does illustrate certain items that seem to correspond to the gestalt of this sword (photo CLI, a dragonhead brass hilt that also has the upper blade bolster of type seen on Ottoman yataghans; another plate XI; another with parrot hilt on tulwar from Gujerat ). The dragonhead items are from Tanjore which is of course SE India. Elgood notes on p.197 of his magnificent "Hindu Arms and Ritual" that yellow brass hilts frequently are characteristic of southern, SW India, and illustrates a hilt with dragonhead and knuckleguard similar to those in Pant. The blade seems to be consistant with Deccani sosun pattah according to Pant (p.80, fig.167) although he notes the Deccani examples seldom had knuckleguards. It would seem these recurved blades that resemble Mughal daggers such as khandjar and bichwa came in a larger swordsword version probably best compared to dirks or shortswords for close quarters combat. I have an example with short blade such as yours and with guardless hilt and the khanjhar hilt form which is essentially ultrastylized 'parrothead'. I tend to think this hilt is a parrot head also. While not typically described in discussions of decoration and motif, there are certain possibilities as far as reasons for its appearance on hilt motif although these associations may not have application. According to symbolism references ( J.E.Cirlot, "A Dictionary of Symbols" N.Y.1962), the parrot is a messenger symbol and as many birds, symbolic of the soul. In Persian literature, the parrot seeks the water of immortality ("Conference of the Birds" by 13th c. Persian poet Faid Ud-Din Attar). In Hinduism , the parrot is associated with Kama, the god of love, as well as prophecy and rainmaking. I must admit through all this 'parrot' research, I cannot resist thoughts of Jimmy Buffitt!!!! Seriously though, I am inclined to think this sword is likely to be mid to latter 19th c. India, probably Tamil Nadu regions, possibly Mysore also. It is a most interesting and unusual example , very nice!! Best regards, Jim P.S. Carlos, your also very interesting item has also the Mughal type blade and the hilt with very distinct dot and circle motif that is typical of weaponry from various regions in Afghanistan and Bukhara. The Persian influences of course predominated weapons from these regions. |
6th December 2005, 01:45 PM | #9 |
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Hi Kai,
There have been quite a lot of onlookers on this thread, but so far, no one has come up with a name – lets hope for the best. In one of your mails you write that it could be a sword for a child, but is the hilt not too big for the hand of a child? Hi Jim, Nice to have you back. I too have a south Indian feeling, but I don’t like, that we so far, have been unable to find a similar blade – other than the one from Figiel’s auction, and that is not exactly like the one Kai shows. Jens |
6th December 2005, 02:21 PM | #10 |
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Hi Jim.
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6th December 2005, 07:31 PM | #11 |
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Hello, Jim.
Nice to see you. (BTW, just one of those bits of useless trivia... J. E. Cirlot, was, among other things, an antique weapons lover and collector. Go figure... ) |
7th April 2006, 06:42 PM | #12 | |
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8th April 2006, 12:42 AM | #13 | |||
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Hello Titus,
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BTW, I'm not insisting that this is the case with my sword just pointing out that it is a valid possibility. Quote:
(Note that the draw cut with regular Tulwars already supposes a pretty close quarter engagement - from the western sword play POV, that is. It's still possible that shorter swords like this were specialized back-up weapons for warriors with other primary weapons used at longer ranges. However, there seems to be not much evidence surviving for such a hypothesis AFAIK...) Regards, Kai |
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14th July 2016, 04:07 PM | #14 | |
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Salams Kai... My apologies since I should have mentioned to you about requesting joining your thread to that of Ariels at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21429 ... Please note that I have requested along with Ariel that these two threads be fused since they are about the same family of swords which appears to be a kind of Indian weapon, hybrid or mixture, not fully researched ...and which together as one thread would make an excellent subject... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi |
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15th July 2016, 03:20 AM | #15 |
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Hello Ariel,
Thanks a lot for pointing out the companion thread and the possible or even probable relationship based on this rare hilt type! The hilt construction of the 2 Indian swords with sigmoid wootz blades discussed in this thread seems to be pretty typical for southern India with an integral langet/tunkou used to attach the wootz blade to the hilt. Quite distinct from the full tang construction used in the 3 examples from the other thread. This might merely be due to constraints/function (with wootz blades being size-limited based on ingots) or possibly quality/status (the 2 pieces discussed here seem to be status pieces with elaborate decoration and parrot head pommel while 2 out of 3 in the other thread appear to be of more mundane origin). While quite a few other blades were shown here in an attempt to establish a relationship, I believe this is a distinct type of sword and I'm not convinced that merging both threads will really help discussion since responses will get mixed up even more. Regards, Kai |
18th October 2016, 01:14 PM | #16 |
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Here's a close-up showing the wootz blade of the sword starting this thread. Am I correct to see some surface manipulation during forging of the ingot to achieve a (possibly ladder-like) pattern?
Regards, Kai |
18th October 2016, 01:25 PM | #17 |
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A very similar sword as already shown in an earlier post:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=26 |
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