More questioning

Tim Simmons · 7th September 2006, 10:08 PM

I got this recently. Compere it with page 42 of "Ngola, The Weapon as Authority and Ritual Object in Sub-Saharan Africa" Hurst Gallery. I have tried to up load this page but my PC is saying invalid file type. Somebody might be able to scan and post this page. My pictures are taken with the flash. I do not think this is any older than the first quarter of the 20th century. it has been well used. Is it just a copy, am I just lucky, or do people make it up as they go along?

If no one can help I can type in the text but I still will not be able to show the item to compere with.

Flavio · 7th September 2006, 10:25 PM

Here is the picture. Beautiful piece, Tim, Congrats!!!!

Tim Simmons · 7th September 2006, 10:37 PM

Hello Flavio,

Could you please help further and get the text up. While I take a picture of the top view.

Flavio · 7th September 2006, 10:46 PM

Hi Tim, here is the text

Tim Simmons · 7th September 2006, 10:51 PM

Top bananna Flavio!!

Are some books a few pages short, opinions please?

Lew · 8th September 2006, 01:49 AM

Tim

I saw that one and if it is the same piece you got it real cheap. The pics were fuzzy and I did not want to chance it.

Congrats it's a nice find.

Lew

Tim Simmons · 8th September 2006, 06:44 PM

Some interesting information here in Tools and Weapons. A small mention of axes and adze. But not item specific.
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/ceras/iron/#anchor870793

Tim Simmons · 8th September 2006, 07:35 PM

Last link and I shall venture a hypothesis. The figure is most probably a representation of an ancestor or perhaps a deity, not a European. The adze is not a weapon. A tool like a weapon only in a metaphorical way to cut ignorance. Used in the masquerade the adze may be said to be the tongue of the ancestors giving weight to community doctrine or custom to pass news, put down rumour, a tool to help community harmony.

http://www.suagacollection.com/mask_details.php?mask=25

katana · 9th September 2006, 03:37 PM

Hi Tim,
I've tried to match the 'headgear' to examples of African art.... I've made the assuption that the 'hat' is 'status specific'.....unfortunately art from that particular region is not well represented on the 'web'.

I did find this, differing Culture....but not a million miles away..

Zulu - Tsonga / Authoritative Staff

Tim Simmons · 9th September 2006, 05:47 PM

Thanks David. Here are pics of two more hats in the same form as that sculpted on the adze and axe figure. The first Cameroon the second Zulu/South African. Clearly this basic shape is common to many parts of Africa. This makes the statements in the book all the more astonishing. It just illustrates how easy conjecture even from very recent publications by reputable sources are often seemingly a little short on research. Thier gravitas somewhat compounding the opinion.

katana · 9th September 2006, 06:23 PM

Headwear, in many societies , has been associated with status or position whether ancient, ethnographic or modern.
I, too, am amazed that the author so readily suggested a 'colonial' influence.....stating the possibility of the hat being a 'flat cap' (in Britain associated with the 'working class').
To my mind...if these carvings are a humorous attempt to saterise the colonial 'insergents' then surely it would be aimed at the military or the 'ruling classes' of that particular country.
If the author is correct in his 'interpretation' then, I suppose the hat could be a military 'beret' further sybolised by the percussion cap top. However, in the British Army the beret was introduced in the 1920's (I'm not certain as to other countries) and the idea seems very unlikely.

'The French beret was introduced in 1924 as the distinctive headdress of the Royal Tank Corps. Other armoured regiments followed, but the beret was not adopted by the army, as a whole, until 1943, although there were some exceptions. At first, the majority of the army was issued with the dark blue beret, but certain regiments and corps which had adopted a distinctively coloured beret before 1943 were allowed to keep that colour. Since then, more colours have been adopted by regiments and corps as a way to commemorate associations or just to be - regimental! '

Tim Simmons · 9th September 2006, 09:29 PM

David that is spot on. I think the flat cap extends further than the UK. But as you so rightly say it was the attire of the working classes though latter versions have become fashionable with the "country set" The most typical sculptural representations of Europeans are authority figures shown with clothing deemed appropriate for the environment.

katana · 10th September 2006, 01:39 AM

I suppose I could argue that this is the European being satirised ..the resemblance is uncanny..........

Would make your piece early 16th century

7th September 2006, 10:08 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	More questioning I got this recently. Compere it with page 42 of "Ngola, The Weapon as Authority and Ritual Object in Sub-Saharan Africa" Hurst Gallery. I have tried to up load this page but my PC is saying invalid file type. Somebody might be able to scan and post this page. My pictures are taken with the flash. I do not think this is any older than the first quarter of the 20th century. it has been well used. Is it just a copy, am I just lucky, or do people make it up as they go along? If no one can help I can type in the text but I still will not be able to show the item to compere with. Attached Images

7th September 2006, 10:25 PM	#2
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Here is the picture. Beautiful piece, Tim, Congrats!!!! Attached Images

7th September 2006, 10:37 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hello Flavio, Could you please help further and get the text up. While I take a picture of the top view. Attached Images

7th September 2006, 10:46 PM	#4
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Tim, here is the text Attached Images

9th September 2006, 03:37 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Tim, I've tried to match the 'headgear' to examples of African art.... I've made the assuption that the 'hat' is 'status specific'.....unfortunately art from that particular region is not well represented on the 'web'. I did find this, differing Culture....but not a million miles away.. Zulu - Tsonga / Authoritative Staff Attached Images

7th September 2006, 10:51 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Top bananna Flavio!! Are some books a few pages short, opinions please?

8th September 2006, 01:49 AM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim I saw that one and if it is the same piece you got it real cheap. The pics were fuzzy and I did not want to chance it. Congrats it's a nice find. Lew

8th September 2006, 06:44 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Some interesting information here in Tools and Weapons. A small mention of axes and adze. But not item specific. http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/ceras/iron/#anchor870793

8th September 2006, 07:35 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Last link and I shall venture a hypothesis. The figure is most probably a representation of an ancestor or perhaps a deity, not a European. The adze is not a weapon. A tool like a weapon only in a metaphorical way to cut ignorance. Used in the masquerade the adze may be said to be the tongue of the ancestors giving weight to community doctrine or custom to pass news, put down rumour, a tool to help community harmony. http://www.suagacollection.com/mask_details.php?mask=25

9th September 2006, 05:47 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Thanks David. Here are pics of two more hats in the same form as that sculpted on the adze and axe figure. The first Cameroon the second Zulu/South African. Clearly this basic shape is common to many parts of Africa. This makes the statements in the book all the more astonishing. It just illustrates how easy conjecture even from very recent publications by reputable sources are often seemingly a little short on research. Thier gravitas somewhat compounding the opinion. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 9th September 2006 at 09:32 PM.

9th September 2006, 06:23 PM	#11
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Headwear, in many societies , has been associated with status or position whether ancient, ethnographic or modern. I, too, am amazed that the author so readily suggested a 'colonial' influence.....stating the possibility of the hat being a 'flat cap' (in Britain associated with the 'working class'). To my mind...if these carvings are a humorous attempt to saterise the colonial 'insergents' then surely it would be aimed at the military or the 'ruling classes' of that particular country. If the author is correct in his 'interpretation' then, I suppose the hat could be a military 'beret' further sybolised by the percussion cap top. However, in the British Army the beret was introduced in the 1920's (I'm not certain as to other countries) and the idea seems very unlikely. 'The French beret was introduced in 1924 as the distinctive headdress of the Royal Tank Corps. Other armoured regiments followed, but the beret was not adopted by the army, as a whole, until 1943, although there were some exceptions. At first, the majority of the army was issued with the dark blue beret, but certain regiments and corps which had adopted a distinctively coloured beret before 1943 were allowed to keep that colour. Since then, more colours have been adopted by regiments and corps as a way to commemorate associations or just to be - regimental! '

9th September 2006, 09:29 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	David that is spot on. I think the flat cap extends further than the UK. But as you so rightly say it was the attire of the working classes though latter versions have become fashionable with the "country set" The most typical sculptural representations of Europeans are authority figures shown with clothing deemed appropriate for the environment.

10th September 2006, 01:39 AM	#13
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I suppose I could argue that this is the European being satirised ..the resemblance is uncanny.......... Would make your piece early 16th century Attached Images