les Apaches-unusual combo revolvers

Jim McDougall · 14th December 2009, 05:46 PM

Something for the readers

Always interested in the esoteric, and recalling the unique book by Lewis Winant, "Firearms Curiosa", I came across some intriguing detail concerning Paris around the turn of the century while looking into of all things, history of French dances such as the well known 'can-can' (= scandal, also 'chahut'=noisy, uproar) which became popular in the fabled cabaret known as the Moulin Rouge (= red windmill).
Also well known during the 'gay nineties' was the rather controversial 'dance' which became known as the 'apache' (pronounced a'paagge) which also became popular at the Moulin Rouge. It was a dance enacting a street fight between two men and a woman, which had taken place nearby in this rough area of Paris known as the Montmarte district.

As often the case it seems, the words of a local journalist described the fury of the altercation as recalling the ferocity of the Apache Indian tribes of the American Southwest in battle, and the term became instantly adopted by these gangs of toughs. In the bravado recalling the event, reenactment in the form of dance brought the dance style that became known also by the name.

One of the most unique weapons used by these early gang members was the odd combination revolver which was comprised of a small caliber (usually 7mm or .27 cal. pinfire) revolver with the grip replaced with knuckleduster (brass knuckles) and a small bayonet ...all of which folded up for east concealment.

While it seems most references to the term 'apaches' applied to these gangs would place c. 1880's, these sans-barrel revolvers seem to date as early as 1870's. It would see, they may have evolved from the small pinfire pepperbox revolvers combined with earlier French Lefaucheaux revolvers which apparantly had collapsible bayonets.

The depradations of these apache gangs seems to have carried well into the first quarter of the 20th century, at least in this particular sense. In a New York Times article of Sept. 1900, it is noted that bystanders near one of these groups "..all remained at a safe distance and held in awe, by the revolvers of three of the desperadoes".
Interestingly the knuckleduster or brass knuckles were termed by them 'American punches', the Apache name from the well known American Indian tribe, and the apparant influence (as noted by the 1900 news item) was gangs in New York some 10 to 15 years earlier.

The foldup guns became known colloquially as the 'deadly flower' probably from that concealable feature. While we know that these were certainly used by these toughs, it seems that law abiding citizens who were constantly preyed upon probably took to using them as well. The difficulties with gun control seem to have been as much present then as today, and of course carrying firearms was prohibited.
It would appear that the gunmakers of Liege in particular DOLNE produced well made examples from 1873-1881, with I believe an 1869 patent. Another example produced in c.1870 by another Liege maker J. Deleaxhe is discussed in "Man at Arms" magazine (July 1978, p.24).

The presence of the gangs of course simply diffused into less colorfully accoutred crime, and the dramatic dance routine prevailed, being seen in many movies from silents into major Hollywood productions with French theme.

These strange combination revolvers seem quite rare and to well retain thier formidability more in remarkable prices as unique novelties, with thier rather dark history less well known.

Attachments: left: 'apache' knuckleduster revolver photo copyright
Wallis & Wallis ,2006
right: 7mm pinfire probably forerunner of the 'apache'
bottom; poster
and the 'dance'

katana · 15th December 2009, 07:09 PM

Hi Jim

,

Interestingly one of these came up on eBay, about a year ago

, obviously the seller didn't realise that it was a true firearm .....perhaps thinking it was a novelty item

needless to say, eBay 'pulled' the auction ....but not before I got some photos from the seller

Regards David

.

fernando · 15th December 2009, 07:28 PM

Hi Jim,
My compliments on the rather comprehensive article on the Apache, and thanks for sharing it, together with the pictures..
It appears that the forerunner of the firearm section, as you illustrate, was the pepperbox sometimes called 'de Curé' (meanning 'of Priest', for unknown reasons), a pattern produced originally by Deprez.
The model shown by David looks very nice. No wonder that the eBay seller didn't realize this intrincate item was a true firearm; it sure looks like a fantasy. On the other hand it seems to be a fact that this kind of devices wasn't propperly an efective weapon, according to the chronicles.
Fernando

JeffS · 15th December 2009, 07:31 PM

Are revolvers without barrels still effective?

fernando · 15th December 2009, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dizos

Are revolvers without barrels still effective?

I am sure i get the meaning of the question, but i was referring to the combination effectiveness; the bayonet is a sissy thing, short and susceptible to close as you thrust, and the knucle duster has no comfortable position.
Naturaly also the lack of barrel implicates in a short distance firing, to be minimaly efective.
I wouldn't call it 'revolver', though; actually the true revolver descends from the pepperbox invention.
Fernando

Jim McDougall · 15th December 2009, 09:59 PM

Fernando thank you so much for the kind words!! and to you and David for the additional material in input! This was such an unusual topic that I feared there would be little response....but you guys always come through

Good question Dizos, and I had wondered about this as well. Actually these strange composites were effective in certain degree, and as one reference noted, they were better than being empty handed. In one of the references it was noted that several police officers in a melee were badly wounded in shots fired.....it seems that this was in the same text where these unusual firearms were seen. Another instance involved severe facial wounds.

I think these fall into the category of the 'street fighting' weapons of earlier times in degree, the formidable looking 'sword breaker' left hand daggers with the pronounced dentation. It has often been questioned whether they were used or not, and the same with these.....probably so, but to what degree cannot be determined.

Street fighting weapons are quite different than combat weapons in that they are intended for 'up close and very personal' contact. They were also intended to be concealed, and as I mentioned, I think many of these so called apache guns were likely to have been obtained by the general public for protection. Sword canes and blackjacks were also types of weapons that were used by thugs, but the blackjack was more for use by thugs....the sword canes of course were well known for gentry, less for the baser element.

It seems similar combination weapons to the apache guns found use as trench weapons in WWI, but I havent found details yet on them.

The knuckleduster was I know incorporated into a full size trench knife.

In one Sherlock Holmes sequence I watched, Watson was concerned he was unarmed as they went on a case into a rough district....Holmes laughed and swing his scarf around, which hit the table with a crash, with whatever very solid material was sewn inside it!! A true bolo type weapon.

BTW, the pepperbox was truly the forerunner to the revolver, and one of the big problems with them was simultaneous detonation......now that would be about as bad for the guy holding the thing I would think.

Thanks so much guys!!!

All the best,
Jim

Atlantia · 26th December 2009, 11:47 PM

On the subject of 'short' or non-existant barrels.
When we consider the date of these weapons and the propellants involved (black powder) its difficult to imagine an effective velocity being achieved, but....
There are many other 'pocket pistols' from the 19thC with very short barrels, and my first thought is more for getting a good seal on the projectile.
When I think of a good 'muff pistol' with a short barrel of less than 2" it's invariably a screw on, so the 'seal' is VERY tight.
But, when I consider the reality of the 'gunfighters' of the late 19thc in America, I believe it was not uncommon for these 'shootists' to cut down the barrels of 'ball and cap' revolvers, to facilitate the fastest possible draw.
Now obviously these wouldn't be used at longer distances, but they must have been effective at close range.And even if they didn't deliver the 'punch' of a longer barrel, they would wound very painfully and spray with burning powder.
Altogether a very unpleasant distraction.

14th December 2009, 05:46 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	les Apaches-unusual combo revolvers Something for the readers Always interested in the esoteric, and recalling the unique book by Lewis Winant, "Firearms Curiosa", I came across some intriguing detail concerning Paris around the turn of the century while looking into of all things, history of French dances such as the well known 'can-can' (= scandal, also 'chahut'=noisy, uproar) which became popular in the fabled cabaret known as the Moulin Rouge (= red windmill). Also well known during the 'gay nineties' was the rather controversial 'dance' which became known as the 'apache' (pronounced a'paagge) which also became popular at the Moulin Rouge. It was a dance enacting a street fight between two men and a woman, which had taken place nearby in this rough area of Paris known as the Montmarte district. As often the case it seems, the words of a local journalist described the fury of the altercation as recalling the ferocity of the Apache Indian tribes of the American Southwest in battle, and the term became instantly adopted by these gangs of toughs. In the bravado recalling the event, reenactment in the form of dance brought the dance style that became known also by the name. One of the most unique weapons used by these early gang members was the odd combination revolver which was comprised of a small caliber (usually 7mm or .27 cal. pinfire) revolver with the grip replaced with knuckleduster (brass knuckles) and a small bayonet ...all of which folded up for east concealment. While it seems most references to the term 'apaches' applied to these gangs would place c. 1880's, these sans-barrel revolvers seem to date as early as 1870's. It would see, they may have evolved from the small pinfire pepperbox revolvers combined with earlier French Lefaucheaux revolvers which apparantly had collapsible bayonets. The depradations of these apache gangs seems to have carried well into the first quarter of the 20th century, at least in this particular sense. In a New York Times article of Sept. 1900, it is noted that bystanders near one of these groups "..all remained at a safe distance and held in awe, by the revolvers of three of the desperadoes". Interestingly the knuckleduster or brass knuckles were termed by them 'American punches', the Apache name from the well known American Indian tribe, and the apparant influence (as noted by the 1900 news item) was gangs in New York some 10 to 15 years earlier. The foldup guns became known colloquially as the 'deadly flower' probably from that concealable feature. While we know that these were certainly used by these toughs, it seems that law abiding citizens who were constantly preyed upon probably took to using them as well. The difficulties with gun control seem to have been as much present then as today, and of course carrying firearms was prohibited. It would appear that the gunmakers of Liege in particular DOLNE produced well made examples from 1873-1881, with I believe an 1869 patent. Another example produced in c.1870 by another Liege maker J. Deleaxhe is discussed in "Man at Arms" magazine (July 1978, p.24). The presence of the gangs of course simply diffused into less colorfully accoutred crime, and the dramatic dance routine prevailed, being seen in many movies from silents into major Hollywood productions with French theme. These strange combination revolvers seem quite rare and to well retain thier formidability more in remarkable prices as unique novelties, with thier rather dark history less well known. Attachments: left: 'apache' knuckleduster revolver photo copyright Wallis & Wallis ,2006 right: 7mm pinfire probably forerunner of the 'apache' bottom; poster and the 'dance' Attached Images

15th December 2009, 07:09 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Jim , Interestingly one of these came up on eBay, about a year ago , obviously the seller didn't realise that it was a true firearm .....perhaps thinking it was a novelty item needless to say, eBay 'pulled' the auction ....but not before I got some photos from the seller Regards David . Attached Images

15th December 2009, 07:28 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Jim, My compliments on the rather comprehensive article on the Apache, and thanks for sharing it, together with the pictures.. It appears that the forerunner of the firearm section, as you illustrate, was the pepperbox sometimes called 'de Curé' (meanning 'of Priest', for unknown reasons), a pattern produced originally by Deprez. The model shown by David looks very nice. No wonder that the eBay seller didn't realize this intrincate item was a true firearm; it sure looks like a fantasy. On the other hand it seems to be a fact that this kind of devices wasn't propperly an efective weapon, according to the chronicles. Fernando

15th December 2009, 07:31 PM	#4
JeffS Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 342	Are revolvers without barrels still effective?

15th December 2009, 09:59 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Fernando thank you so much for the kind words!! and to you and David for the additional material in input! This was such an unusual topic that I feared there would be little response....but you guys always come through Good question Dizos, and I had wondered about this as well. Actually these strange composites were effective in certain degree, and as one reference noted, they were better than being empty handed. In one of the references it was noted that several police officers in a melee were badly wounded in shots fired.....it seems that this was in the same text where these unusual firearms were seen. Another instance involved severe facial wounds. I think these fall into the category of the 'street fighting' weapons of earlier times in degree, the formidable looking 'sword breaker' left hand daggers with the pronounced dentation. It has often been questioned whether they were used or not, and the same with these.....probably so, but to what degree cannot be determined. Street fighting weapons are quite different than combat weapons in that they are intended for 'up close and very personal' contact. They were also intended to be concealed, and as I mentioned, I think many of these so called apache guns were likely to have been obtained by the general public for protection. Sword canes and blackjacks were also types of weapons that were used by thugs, but the blackjack was more for use by thugs....the sword canes of course were well known for gentry, less for the baser element. It seems similar combination weapons to the apache guns found use as trench weapons in WWI, but I havent found details yet on them. The knuckleduster was I know incorporated into a full size trench knife. In one Sherlock Holmes sequence I watched, Watson was concerned he was unarmed as they went on a case into a rough district....Holmes laughed and swing his scarf around, which hit the table with a crash, with whatever very solid material was sewn inside it!! A true bolo type weapon. BTW, the pepperbox was truly the forerunner to the revolver, and one of the big problems with them was simultaneous detonation......now that would be about as bad for the guy holding the thing I would think. Thanks so much guys!!! All the best, Jim

26th December 2009, 11:47 PM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	On the subject of 'short' or non-existant barrels. When we consider the date of these weapons and the propellants involved (black powder) its difficult to imagine an effective velocity being achieved, but.... There are many other 'pocket pistols' from the 19thC with very short barrels, and my first thought is more for getting a good seal on the projectile. When I think of a good 'muff pistol' with a short barrel of less than 2" it's invariably a screw on, so the 'seal' is VERY tight. But, when I consider the reality of the 'gunfighters' of the late 19thc in America, I believe it was not uncommon for these 'shootists' to cut down the barrels of 'ball and cap' revolvers, to facilitate the fastest possible draw. Now obviously these wouldn't be used at longer distances, but they must have been effective at close range.And even if they didn't deliver the 'punch' of a longer barrel, they would wound very painfully and spray with burning powder. Altogether a very unpleasant distraction.