Dating and determination of origin of a sabre with a lion-snake mount

[Richard R.]

Hello,

For the verification of a thesis, I ask you to date an determinate the origin of this sabre intuitively on the basis of the style of the mounting. If you know of similar mountings on other sabres, I would be grateful for informations and comparison pictures.

Thanks,

Richard

[M ELEY]

Well...no one else has come in on this one. This is a really beautiful piece! I'm clueless, but if I were to put my 2 cents in, I'd wager French based on the design as well as the solid brass hilt (which, to my knowledge, wasn't so popular with the Brits, Germans, etc). On the other hand, it reminds me of some of the British so-called 'band swords' with it's brass hilt and animal pattern, but band swords didn't have fighting blades like yours does. French officer's swords frequently favored brass and stylized hilts of snakes, roosters, etc. OK, now let's open the floor to those more knowledgeable!!

[M ELEY]

Here's the British pattern band sword with brass lion hilt-

[M ELEY]

Here's just one example of a fine French animal hilted sword. Your sword has downward langets, popular on many of their sword patterns, plus the gadrooning pattern on the langet very 'French' to me. Your lion/snake hilt sword makes me wonder if it might be influenced by the whole Napoleonic 'Nile' theme France had going on, where many European swords began having more mystical themes incorporated into the swords.

[M ELEY]

Well, maybe I spoke too soon about a French connotation! Here is a British presentation sword heavily influenced by the Nile Campaign featuring a fine crocodile hilt, blued presentation fighting blade, etc. Still, my point being that the fighting in Egypt circa 1800 as well as the Barbary Wars affected sword design (U.S. forces also were influenced by exposure to ethnographic cultures around this time period, creating a mameluke style sword for the newly reformed U.S. Marine Corps). Based very loosely on my supposition, your sword could date c. 1800-30. Could we see a complete picture of the blade, as well as markings, designs? Length?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Well, maybe I spoke too soon about a French connotation! Here is a British presentation sword heavily influenced by the Nile Campaign featuring a fine crocodile hilt, blued presentation fighting blade, etc. Still, my point being that the fighting in Egypt circa 1800 as well as the Barbary Wars affected sword design (U.S. forces also were influenced by exposure to ethnographic cultures around this time period, creating a mameluke style sword for the newly reformed U.S. Marine Corps). Based very loosely on my supposition, your sword could date c. 1800-30. Could we see a complete picture of the blade, as well as markings, designs? Length?

I very much agree with this being of this period and as you well note Capn, the campaigns in Egypt dramatically influenced military swords, with the well known mameluke sabers being a prime example.

'Oriental' fashion had already influenced European military styles since the mid 18th century, and the exotic flamboyance and appeal of the romantic 'flashing scimitar' were instantly appealing to the officers of both England and France. While England was a bit delayed in officially designating the mameluke hilt (1831), there were examples much earlier.
The French however, seem to have been far 'sooner out of the gate' with mameluke hilts and of the familiar French variance of artistic scope in mountings.

The neoclassic motif and zoomorphic representations on sword hilts, as shown here were characteristic already on officers sword hilts, but the Egyptian context added new themes, as seen by the 'Nile presentation swords' with crocodiles as shown.

As noted, in England the flowing mane was favored on lion heads (exceptions of course, but fewer) while in France, the leopard, well known in hussar fashion on the Continent seems more in accord with this hilt.

That is why I am inclined more to a French origin here, the snake, an artistic addition with certain allegorical connections classically also seems more a likely French affectation.

These hilts are difficult to classify as officers of course commissioned their own swords by artisans who also designed them independently to appeal to the competitive fashion atmosphere of this time.

I one had a British M1803 lionhead flank company officers saber, but instead of the flowing mane, the lion was given a stylized sphinx type style. I believe the 'pattern' was designated to a particular British unit, of which there were of course very few probably made.