Nimcha, literally

TVV · 19th April 2008, 08:56 PM

Quoting Elgood, nimcha means "half" and so should be applied to swords half the size of a normal sword.
My latest purchase falls within this category. Whether the blade was shortened on purpose to make it more suitable for fighting on board or was broken and the tip redone, it certainly is half the size. I think the markings indicate a Solingen trade blade, but Jim, Jeff and others are much more knowledgeable on the subject and I would appreciate comments.
Regards,
Teodor

ariel · 20th April 2008, 12:06 AM

Is it Moroccan with one quillon broken off or Algirean ( 2 quillons to start with)?

TVV · 20th April 2008, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Is it Moroccan with one quillon broken off or Algirean ( 2 quillons to start with)?

The third quillion is broken off, so I guess Moroccan.

Jim McDougall · 20th April 2008, 03:33 AM

Hi Teodor,
A really interesting and unusual example of the Moroccan sa'if typically termed by collectors 'nimcha'. This example is unusual as it is mounted with a heavy straight blade, which is most likely a Solingen product and of the end of the 18th century. The blade seems to be of its original length as the center point fuller meets the tip as is typical for this particular cross section blade known as 'Montmorency' for the French officer who designed it in that period.
The cabalistic symbol panoply is of typical Solingen application. It seems that this type blade was more common on longer cavalry blades, but wonder if this might have been designed for shorter weapons such as those on artillery swords, and auxiliary units.
Interesting note on the quillon system, I was not aware that these hilts had variation between Morocco and Algeria. While these are typically regarded as Moroccan, it is well known they were used as far as Algeria, and interestingly there are portraits of English nobles wearing them in the 17th century.

Best regards,
Jim

Jeff D · 20th April 2008, 06:36 AM

Hi Teodor,

As stated by Jim this is a Solingen product, late 18th to early 19th century. The sun, moon and star motifs are typical and often confused with the much more elaborate etchings of Peter Munich. The only maker's mark that I have seen on the same blade as these etchings is J.J. Runkle (1750-1808). I don't know if he is associated with all of these symbols or if a separate engraver made them for a number of manufactures?
Now here is where I get sweaty palms, by not completely agreeing with Jim

. I think this is a shortened blade, from most likely a heavy cavalry backsword. Do you have the measurements? Sweet piece!

All the Best.
Jeff

TVV · 20th April 2008, 09:14 AM

Jim and Jeff,
Thank you for your comments. The overall length of the entire sword is 31 inches. My feeling is also that it has been shortened. I will try to get a picture of the tip and more detailed measurements tomorrow.
Thanks,
Teodor

Jim McDougall · 20th April 2008, 08:40 PM

In taking a closer look at the blade tip here, it does not appear 'center point' and with that does appear shortened, and I concur with Teodor and Jeff

This makes a great deal more sense, as horsemans sword blades of the 1770's to 1780's were straight and commonly of this section.

All best regards,
JIm

19th April 2008, 08:56 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Nimcha, literally Quoting Elgood, nimcha means "half" and so should be applied to swords half the size of a normal sword. My latest purchase falls within this category. Whether the blade was shortened on purpose to make it more suitable for fighting on board or was broken and the tip redone, it certainly is half the size. I think the markings indicate a Solingen trade blade, but Jim, Jeff and others are much more knowledgeable on the subject and I would appreciate comments. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

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20th April 2008, 12:06 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Is it Moroccan with one quillon broken off or Algirean ( 2 quillons to start with)?

20th April 2008, 03:33 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Hi Teodor, A really interesting and unusual example of the Moroccan sa'if typically termed by collectors 'nimcha'. This example is unusual as it is mounted with a heavy straight blade, which is most likely a Solingen product and of the end of the 18th century. The blade seems to be of its original length as the center point fuller meets the tip as is typical for this particular cross section blade known as 'Montmorency' for the French officer who designed it in that period. The cabalistic symbol panoply is of typical Solingen application. It seems that this type blade was more common on longer cavalry blades, but wonder if this might have been designed for shorter weapons such as those on artillery swords, and auxiliary units. Interesting note on the quillon system, I was not aware that these hilts had variation between Morocco and Algeria. While these are typically regarded as Moroccan, it is well known they were used as far as Algeria, and interestingly there are portraits of English nobles wearing them in the 17th century. Best regards, Jim

20th April 2008, 06:36 AM	#5
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Teodor, As stated by Jim this is a Solingen product, late 18th to early 19th century. The sun, moon and star motifs are typical and often confused with the much more elaborate etchings of Peter Munich. The only maker's mark that I have seen on the same blade as these etchings is J.J. Runkle (1750-1808). I don't know if he is associated with all of these symbols or if a separate engraver made them for a number of manufactures? Now here is where I get sweaty palms, by not completely agreeing with Jim . I think this is a shortened blade, from most likely a heavy cavalry backsword. Do you have the measurements? Sweet piece! All the Best. Jeff

20th April 2008, 09:14 AM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Jim and Jeff, Thank you for your comments. The overall length of the entire sword is 31 inches. My feeling is also that it has been shortened. I will try to get a picture of the tip and more detailed measurements tomorrow. Thanks, Teodor

20th April 2008, 08:40 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	In taking a closer look at the blade tip here, it does not appear 'center point' and with that does appear shortened, and I concur with Teodor and Jeff This makes a great deal more sense, as horsemans sword blades of the 1770's to 1780's were straight and commonly of this section. All best regards, JIm