Explaining forgeries

ariel · 5th July 2007, 02:13 AM

I got several requests from the Forumites to explain why I thought a particular expensive Shashka from Georgia was a fake. I did it in PMs, stating that I was unwilling to help the forgers to understand their mistakes.
One Forumite argued with me that pubilicizing the info is safe: the forgers would be unlikely to change their routine and that it would be too expensive for them. An example was forgery of Nihonto, where all the tricks are known, but the real things are still distinguishable from the fakes.
My contrargument is that faking Nihonto is a well-established process and most of the bugs were already taken out of the system. Faking well-corroded and properly-signed tang is a major undertaking. In contrast, some forgeries are still in their infancy: Caucasian, Chinese etc. The problems there are so minor that fixing them would take no effort and the quality of the fake product would rise exponentially. Thus, even minor hints could have major impact.
Any opinions?

HorseNomad · 5th July 2007, 02:34 AM

I guess I'm lucky to be in ancient swords, people haven't started faking them (yet) but they do place them way off in dating because nobody does the research except a few die-hards. Different story though.

Now back when I collected later (17-18-19 century) stuff, I remember having this conversation with a bunch of guys and I have to say I think you're right Arel. The more tipoffs you give the more you help out the forgers. You said right up front in your first post about the letters being off for Imperial Russia-- "And then you read the inscription on the blade: the grammar is post 1918 ( absent letters "yat") and the spelling is wrong." I think that's enough to convince anybody, right there.

Tim

josh stout · 5th July 2007, 04:40 PM

I would say that for discussion on a public forum it is a matter of focusing on those telltale signs of fakes that are either very difficult to fix, such as details of pattern welding, or unique to a particular fake, such as a misspelling. In Chinese fakes the sophisticated forgers have figured out the easy telltales, but there are still may forgers who I would not want to improve their techniques. Unfortunately judging from eBay sales, the unsophisticated forgers are still finding inexperienced buyers. Those forgers are more likely to learn techniques form a public forum than the buyers. However, the occasional detail buried deep in a thread is like found gold to those like myself who are trying to educate ourselves in a discipline with very little published information.
Josh

Mark · 5th July 2007, 05:20 PM

I think forgers come in different flavors.

The low-end ones probably won't change what they are doing, since they are all about volume and high profit margin. To them, the swords are just commodities, and you could almost say that they are not really even trying to "fake" anything, but are just making cheap swords, period. Improving their fakes would make them more expensive to make, and they don't want to (or don't have the sophistication to) try and sell them on a higher-end market.

Then you have the more sophisticated forgers, who really are trying to make fakes to pass off as the real thing. They are still not very sophisticated because they are using unskilled labor, and still doing a volume business. These guys may make the more obvious changes, though in most cases the workmanship will still be so bad that you can spot the fakes.

The highest-end forgers are those who use talented workers, and try and copy the piece down to the smallest details. This would include sophisticated artificial aging, for example, going beyond painting on some cheesy artificial patina. These guys may even take genuine swords and alter them to make the look older, or to appear as a rarer or more valuable weapon. These are the guys that you really don't want to help.

The bottom line for me is that you could expect all of these people to be on the look-out for hints on improving their products, so I think that it is a bad idea to be very specific on the open forum. Sure, the low-end guys won't do much with the info, but the high-end guys, who can do the most damage, will.

Bill M · 6th July 2007, 03:30 AM

I have talked with several high end dealers about ways to distinguish fakes and while I learned a few things, mostly they did not want the knowledge broadcast because fakers would change and it would be harder to spot the fake products.

Nowadays almost everyone has a computer, especially the fakers.

There are people, dealers, collectors who have paid their dues and handled so many authentic pieces that they have developed a "feel" for their arenas. Most people I know need to handle an object to determine authenticity.

I do not buy expensive pieces anymore unless they come from a dealer established in a certain area, and most of them offer a lifetime refund if the object is proven fake by a reputable source.

5th July 2007, 02:13 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Explaining forgeries I got several requests from the Forumites to explain why I thought a particular expensive Shashka from Georgia was a fake. I did it in PMs, stating that I was unwilling to help the forgers to understand their mistakes. One Forumite argued with me that pubilicizing the info is safe: the forgers would be unlikely to change their routine and that it would be too expensive for them. An example was forgery of Nihonto, where all the tricks are known, but the real things are still distinguishable from the fakes. My contrargument is that faking Nihonto is a well-established process and most of the bugs were already taken out of the system. Faking well-corroded and properly-signed tang is a major undertaking. In contrast, some forgeries are still in their infancy: Caucasian, Chinese etc. The problems there are so minor that fixing them would take no effort and the quality of the fake product would rise exponentially. Thus, even minor hints could have major impact. Any opinions?

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5th July 2007, 02:34 AM	#2
HorseNomad Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: D.C. area Posts: 8	I guess I'm lucky to be in ancient swords, people haven't started faking them (yet) but they do place them way off in dating because nobody does the research except a few die-hards. Different story though. Now back when I collected later (17-18-19 century) stuff, I remember having this conversation with a bunch of guys and I have to say I think you're right Arel. The more tipoffs you give the more you help out the forgers. You said right up front in your first post about the letters being off for Imperial Russia-- "And then you read the inscription on the blade: the grammar is post 1918 ( absent letters "yat") and the spelling is wrong." I think that's enough to convince anybody, right there. Tim

5th July 2007, 04:40 PM	#3
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I would say that for discussion on a public forum it is a matter of focusing on those telltale signs of fakes that are either very difficult to fix, such as details of pattern welding, or unique to a particular fake, such as a misspelling. In Chinese fakes the sophisticated forgers have figured out the easy telltales, but there are still may forgers who I would not want to improve their techniques. Unfortunately judging from eBay sales, the unsophisticated forgers are still finding inexperienced buyers. Those forgers are more likely to learn techniques form a public forum than the buyers. However, the occasional detail buried deep in a thread is like found gold to those like myself who are trying to educate ourselves in a discipline with very little published information. Josh

5th July 2007, 05:20 PM	#4
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I think forgers come in different flavors. The low-end ones probably won't change what they are doing, since they are all about volume and high profit margin. To them, the swords are just commodities, and you could almost say that they are not really even trying to "fake" anything, but are just making cheap swords, period. Improving their fakes would make them more expensive to make, and they don't want to (or don't have the sophistication to) try and sell them on a higher-end market. Then you have the more sophisticated forgers, who really are trying to make fakes to pass off as the real thing. They are still not very sophisticated because they are using unskilled labor, and still doing a volume business. These guys may make the more obvious changes, though in most cases the workmanship will still be so bad that you can spot the fakes. The highest-end forgers are those who use talented workers, and try and copy the piece down to the smallest details. This would include sophisticated artificial aging, for example, going beyond painting on some cheesy artificial patina. These guys may even take genuine swords and alter them to make the look older, or to appear as a rarer or more valuable weapon. These are the guys that you really don't want to help. The bottom line for me is that you could expect all of these people to be on the look-out for hints on improving their products, so I think that it is a bad idea to be very specific on the open forum. Sure, the low-end guys won't do much with the info, but the high-end guys, who can do the most damage, will.

6th July 2007, 03:30 AM	#5
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	I have talked with several high end dealers about ways to distinguish fakes and while I learned a few things, mostly they did not want the knowledge broadcast because fakers would change and it would be harder to spot the fake products. Nowadays almost everyone has a computer, especially the fakers. There are people, dealers, collectors who have paid their dues and handled so many authentic pieces that they have developed a "feel" for their arenas. Most people I know need to handle an object to determine authenticity. I do not buy expensive pieces anymore unless they come from a dealer established in a certain area, and most of them offer a lifetime refund if the object is proven fake by a reputable source.