A German -Arab combination dagger

eftihis · 19th March 2006, 04:36 PM

Recycling is a practice that has been going on since the beggining of history, and is always interesting to see it when happens!
When i bought this Arab dagger, it seemed that there was something strange in it, not only because of the strange straight blade shape, but also because the scabbard was very heavy.
A closer look discovered a German WW2 blade from an SA dagger mounted as an arab dagger! THe signs of the manufacturer RZM and the inscription "Alles fur Deutsland" have been grinded out but they are still a little bit visible!
Also the scabbard was heavy because the local craftsman kept the original German scabbard and adjusted a new silver chased scabbard over it. You can see on the sides the holes for the screws that the original scabbard has.
Best Regards to all!

Valjhun · 19th March 2006, 04:44 PM

Great find Eftihis!

It was certainly an late RZM issue SA. Are there signs that the tang was prolungated? Verry interesting... What an interesting story that dagger could tell us... Is that dagger from Marocco?

ariel · 19th March 2006, 05:52 PM

The handle looks Moroccan, but...
There were Islamic units in the German military during WWII.
The former Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj-Amin el-Husseini, spent the entire WWII period in Germany, hobnobbing with the Nazis. He tried to push them into invading Palestine. In exchange, he helped them to recruit Muslems into Nazi service, and an SS Division " Hanjar" (yes, fellow weapon lovers, a name for a dagger....) was formed from the Bosnians and those lovelies were slaughtering Serbs like chicken. BTW, the recent President of Bosnia, Alija Izetbegovic was, in his youth, a member of "Hanjar". Another Nazi unit was an Albanian "Skanderbeg" SS Division (operating mainly in Kosovo).
The then Moroccan King, Mohammed V, tightly collaborated with the Nazis , too. Morocco was officially a protectorate of the ostensibly independent Vichy Republic, but ... let's play "Casablanca" again, Sam...

Whereas it is possible that this dagger was a post-war creation ( much SS booty was left in North Africa), I am wondering : could it be of the vintage WWII production, a pro-Nazi Muslim uniform, decoration etc, etc.
There are quite a few WWII collectors, especially of Nazi memorabilia. Can anybody ask around?

Valjhun · 19th March 2006, 06:27 PM

Well, I was collecting nazi militaria in the past, and as far as I know that is not an official piece... I belive it from Marocco where a SA blade was manufactured in this Koummya post WWII . Besides both Hanjar and Skanderbeg were muslim divisions of the Waffen SS, they were using fez type headgear also and yes, they were happy to sloughter Serbs, their officers were using classical black SS daggers. Thatone is from SA. I would guess that some nazi party man was in Marocco at the time and left his dagger there. Another thing thoose daggers were formal wear and a symbol of the nazists and if an arab would try to make this from one of their daggers, the poor soul would be immediatly killed. So, no pro-nazi uniform I'm affraid

SS booty in N. Africa? Where have you heard about it? Maybe, in Libia, there were a couple of units of Waffen SS with the AfrikaKorps...

Yes, let's see Casablanca again, maybe Bogart have some other hint to tell us...

Eftihis, Is the scabbard only covered with that bras decoration, or it is actually that the pieces were exchanged?

eftihis · 20th March 2006, 06:43 AM

I am afraid i do not know where the dagger is from originally. I have bought it from the States.
Also a dagger is not SS, but SA, a unit that didnt existed anymore when the war started. So it must have been someones favorite dagger so he carried it with him.
There was also a small silver "hat" at the top of the handle, which was loose and i don remember where i have it now.
Ariel, i think there is no possibility that someone had it this way during the war, there was too much disipline and standartisation to allow this. It is simply recycling.
Valjhun, i am not sure if i understand the question, but the original scabbard is below the decorated metal sheet.

19th March 2006, 04:36 PM	#1
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	A German -Arab combination dagger Recycling is a practice that has been going on since the beggining of history, and is always interesting to see it when happens! When i bought this Arab dagger, it seemed that there was something strange in it, not only because of the strange straight blade shape, but also because the scabbard was very heavy. A closer look discovered a German WW2 blade from an SA dagger mounted as an arab dagger! THe signs of the manufacturer RZM and the inscription "Alles fur Deutsland" have been grinded out but they are still a little bit visible! Also the scabbard was heavy because the local craftsman kept the original German scabbard and adjusted a new silver chased scabbard over it. You can see on the sides the holes for the screws that the original scabbard has. Best Regards to all! Attached Images

19th March 2006, 06:27 PM	#4
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Well, I was collecting nazi militaria in the past, and as far as I know that is not an official piece... I belive it from Marocco where a SA blade was manufactured in this Koummya post WWII . Besides both Hanjar and Skanderbeg were muslim divisions of the Waffen SS, they were using fez type headgear also and yes, they were happy to sloughter Serbs, their officers were using classical black SS daggers. Thatone is from SA. I would guess that some nazi party man was in Marocco at the time and left his dagger there. Another thing thoose daggers were formal wear and a symbol of the nazists and if an arab would try to make this from one of their daggers, the poor soul would be immediatly killed. So, no pro-nazi uniform I'm affraid SS booty in N. Africa? Where have you heard about it? Maybe, in Libia, there were a couple of units of Waffen SS with the AfrikaKorps... Yes, let's see Casablanca again, maybe Bogart have some other hint to tell us... Eftihis, Is the scabbard only covered with that bras decoration, or it is actually that the pieces were exchanged? Attached Images

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19th March 2006, 04:44 PM	#2
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Great find Eftihis! It was certainly an late RZM issue SA. Are there signs that the tang was prolungated? Verry interesting... What an interesting story that dagger could tell us... Is that dagger from Marocco?

19th March 2006, 05:52 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The handle looks Moroccan, but... There were Islamic units in the German military during WWII. The former Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj-Amin el-Husseini, spent the entire WWII period in Germany, hobnobbing with the Nazis. He tried to push them into invading Palestine. In exchange, he helped them to recruit Muslems into Nazi service, and an SS Division " Hanjar" (yes, fellow weapon lovers, a name for a dagger....) was formed from the Bosnians and those lovelies were slaughtering Serbs like chicken. BTW, the recent President of Bosnia, Alija Izetbegovic was, in his youth, a member of "Hanjar". Another Nazi unit was an Albanian "Skanderbeg" SS Division (operating mainly in Kosovo). The then Moroccan King, Mohammed V, tightly collaborated with the Nazis , too. Morocco was officially a protectorate of the ostensibly independent Vichy Republic, but ... let's play "Casablanca" again, Sam... Whereas it is possible that this dagger was a post-war creation ( much SS booty was left in North Africa), I am wondering : could it be of the vintage WWII production, a pro-Nazi Muslim uniform, decoration etc, etc. There are quite a few WWII collectors, especially of Nazi memorabilia. Can anybody ask around?

20th March 2006, 06:43 AM	#5
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	I am afraid i do not know where the dagger is from originally. I have bought it from the States. Also a dagger is not SS, but SA, a unit that didnt existed anymore when the war started. So it must have been someones favorite dagger so he carried it with him. There was also a small silver "hat" at the top of the handle, which was loose and i don remember where i have it now. Ariel, i think there is no possibility that someone had it this way during the war, there was too much disipline and standartisation to allow this. It is simply recycling. Valjhun, i am not sure if i understand the question, but the original scabbard is below the decorated metal sheet.