Identifying BREASTPLATE

[Cerjak]

Hi everybody
I need your help for this breastplate in excavation condition.
Weight around 7500 gr .
No mark only many bullets impact
Any comment on it are welcome.
Regards
CERJAK

[Cerjak]

I Hope that someone could tell the period and origin ..

[A Senefelder]

Jean, this appears to be of 17th century form with residual peascod shape. The simple incised line decoration and method of attaching over the shoulders ( leather straps with steel/iron plate at the end with several holes to accept the two eyes at the nipples ) are both typical of the 17th century. What i'm currious about is the several points, at one shoulder, down at one corner of the waist, that seem to show delamination. The pics of the inside don't indicate and old patches. Is it possible this is of laminated construction?

[fernando]

Nice piece, Jean .
Funny the 'modern' topic rust
Do i see some similarities between yours and mine ?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=BREASTPLATE

The more i look at mine, the more i find strange that it is so short in height... less 5 cms. than yours and with practicaly the same width.
Would mine be for a youngster or is it a different type of outfit ? ...
What do you say, Allan?

[A Senefelder]

Fernando, 5cm is not that great a variation and when taking sizing into account could still have it being in the realm of for and adult, albiet one of lesser physiological stature perhaps. Breast plates, in order to accomodate human physiology are not particullary " tall ". They can only come down to roughly the lowest rib of the rib cage as, in a full plung,bend at the waist, the entire midriff " dissapears " so if the breast plate were much longer than that it would interfere with the ablility to bend fully ( especially important in an uncontrolled movement like say a fall from a horse ). With that said 5cm would fall inside the realm of variance for fitting adults of a bit different sizes.

There were some types of breast plate that allowed them to be long/come farther down the abdomen, but they were not of one piece construction. The two to three piece breast plates of the 15th century ( which actuated on slot rivets and leathers ) could be longer due to thier ability to collapse/articulate, and the l'anime type breast plates that were fashionable mid16 century around Europe and stayed fashionable in Eastern Europe well into the 17th and even 18th centuries were made up of a series of lames articulating on slot rivets that could also extend to cover more of the abdomen due to thier ability to collapse/articulate when the body bends. Maximillain armours often adopted a two piece construction where the entire waist portion was a seperate assembly and articulated on rivets on either side, aloowing the waist line to be lower as the bottom/waist protion would articulate up inside the top portion in a bend.

As far as the period for yours I would place it as contemperaneous to Jeans and I had one very similar back in the late 90's with the same incised line decorations around neck and arms which Jeans has a well. I had one until a few years ago that was of the same period but was especailly nice as the area betwee the incised lines around the neck and arm openings had been ehat blued ( Lee got to see this one at several events )I remember when you posted yours and I was still a lurker. The sets of holes one either side above the waist line, which was a topic for discussion, are in my opinion likely for the attachment of tassets by large metal hinges as was seen sometimes on 17th century pikemans armours, especaily some of the nicer ones out of Greenwich in England. Whilst a late 16th century attributation certainly not out of the question, i'm used to encountering the small residual form of peascod in a 17th century context ( which oddly hangs on till late in the century, whilst eventually often, breast plates come to be made with just a simple medial ridge by mid century, you can still find examples of that little " nub " of the peascod, pronounced and keel like at its hieght in the 16th century, still being pounded into the occasional example in the harquebussiers breast plates at the last quarter of the century ).

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by A Senefelder

Fernando, 5cm is not that great a variation and when taking sizing into account could still have it being in the realm of for and adult, albiet one of lesser physiological stature perhaps. Breast plates, in order to accomodate human physiology are not particullary " tall ". They can only come down to roughly the lowest rib of the rib cage as, in a full plung,bend at the waist, the entire midriff " dissapears " so if the breast plate were much longer than that it would interfere with the ablility to bend fully ( especially important in an uncontrolled movement like say a fall from a horse ). With that said 5cm would fall inside the realm of variance for fitting adults of a bit different sizes.

There were some types of breast plate that allowed them to be long/come farther down the abdomen, but they were not of one piece construction. The two to three piece breast plates of the 15th century ( which actuated on slot rivets and leathers ) could be longer due to thier ability to collapse/articulate, and the l'anime type breast plates that were fashionable mid16 century around Europe and stayed fashionable in Eastern Europe well into the 17th and even 18th centuries were made up of a series of lames articulating on slot rivets that could also extend to cover more of the abdomen due to thier ability to collapse/articulate when the body bends. Maximillain armours often adopted a two piece construction where the entire waist portion was a seperate assembly and articulated on rivets on either side, aloowing the waist line to be lower as the bottom/waist protion would articulate up inside the top portion in a bend.

As far as the period for yours I would place it as contemperaneous to Jeans and I had one very similar back in the late 90's with the same incised line decorations around neck and arms which Jeans has a well. I had one until a few years ago that was of the same period but was especailly nice as the area betwee the incised lines around the neck and arm openings had been ehat blued ( Lee got to see this one at several events )I remember when you posted yours and I was still a lurker. The sets of holes one either side above the waist line, which was a topic for discussion, are in my opinion likely for the attachment of tassets by large metal hinges as was seen sometimes on 17th century pikemans armours, especaily some of the nicer ones out of Greenwich in England. Whilst a late 16th century attributation certainly not out of the question, i'm used to encountering the small residual form of peascod in a 17th century context ( which oddly hangs on till late in the century, whilst eventually often, breast plates come to be made with just a simple medial ridge by mid century, you can still find examples of that little " nub " of the peascod, pronounced and keel like at its hieght in the 16th century, still being pounded into the occasional example in the harquebussiers breast plates at the last quarter of the century ).

Hi Allan
I was expected your comment ,yes it seems to be of laminated construction but you are the specialist about the construction so I'm not 100 % sure.
And may be it could explain the difference of weight ( 3500 gr) with Fernando's example ?
Kind regards

Jean-Luc

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by fernando

Nice piece, Jean .
Funny the 'modern' topic rust
Do i see some similarities between yours and mine ?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=BREASTPLATE

The more i look at mine, the more i find strange that it is so short in height... less 5 cms. than yours and with practicaly the same width.
Would mine be for a youngster or is it a different type of outfit ? ...
What do you say, Allan?

Hi Fernando

I have seen your old post ,yes it is same design but more rust in my side ,I will have some works on it this weekend !
Do you know the weight from yours ?
Kind regards

Jean-Luc

[fernando]

Thank you so much for the authentic treatise, Allan
I will digest that with enthusiasm

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

...Do you know the weight from yours ?...

Circa 4,4 Kgs.