Nice&complete big Surmene knife

erlikhan · 21st September 2005, 12:05 AM

I recently acquired this big Surmene. I liked it when I saw, not only because of its beautiful blade, but also because they're not often seen with the original scabbards and mountings existing, and even plus in so good condition. The hilt is horn and is over the average too. I cant resist thinking that the pommel's shape symbolizes a wild bird head. Total 50 cm.I would like to any comments and any additional info.
regards

Justin · 22nd September 2005, 01:17 AM

Absoloutely gorgeous!

I have only seen a few of these but that is probably the nicest yet,congrats!

Rivkin · 22nd September 2005, 07:10 AM

surmene like in Trabzon, Lazastan ?

erlikhan · 22nd September 2005, 10:19 AM

Thank you very much Justin. Rivkin, yes Surmene is a town in Trabzon province and this type is named after that town. They were mainly made there. I have seen exactly same way stamped and fullered but straight kindjal blades with Caucassian scabbards. Means it was once a serious blade exporter town I guess. (Today they focus on not blades, but have upgraded to very good guns and rifles production)
I got a small yataghan from the same dealer in Istanbul as well. He insists it is a Levent (Turkish naval soldier) arm, short so easy to carry in belt while performing duties on board, but I am not sure..Perhaps just to add some more taste to the story.

Rivkin · 22nd September 2005, 05:29 PM

I've spoken with a couple of Laz martial arts experts. One should take their opinions with a grain of salt, but what they said is:

a. Traditional Laz weapon is a kindjal.
b. Yataghans are not traditional, but appeared mostly due to the influence of "Trabazands Janissaries", laz by origin.
c. "Laz Bichaq" has a very _peculiar_ reputation - it's basically a distinct pirate sword.

erlikhan · 22nd September 2005, 06:03 PM

If you visit Turkey's Black Sea region, you will see that ethnic Lazs are all Muslim, live mainly out of Trabzon province, you must go east in Rize and Artvin till Georgian border to see them in small population like 100.000 and in Trabzon people can accept "Laz" as just something folkloric if anybody calls them so for joke or something like that, but almost none of them accept Laz identity when somebody seriously names them so ethnically,insisting even can cause fight sometimes. I havent heard anything like Laz Janissaries, as Lazs have been Muslim since centuries ago, so how could they be taken as janissary? But if there are available sources about it, i would like to examine. I think many people abroad, confuse local Black sea Greeks, who lived in that region till 1920's as a minority and Lazs somehow, and as far as i observe, generally western collectors like combining every weapon type from any part of the world to individual separate tribes, but according to me, the nuances in styles dont have so definite micro ethnical but more geographical origins in larger scales.
regards

Andrew · 23rd September 2005, 06:30 PM

Allow me to add the same advice I offered the last time this type of exchange occured:

1. Use PM's or Email if you want to air out your nationalistic grievances. Don't pollute this forum with it. It's not welcome here.

2. Don't respond if a post offends you. Report the post to a Staff member instead.

3. Use the "ignore" feature. It works, and makes a member's posts invisible to you.

Yannis and Erlikhan, you are perilously close to losing your posting privileges permanently. If you enjoy this forum as much as we value your contributions, please refrain from this type of conduct in the future.

21st September 2005, 12:05 AM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Nice&complete big Surmene knife I recently acquired this big Surmene. I liked it when I saw, not only because of its beautiful blade, but also because they're not often seen with the original scabbards and mountings existing, and even plus in so good condition. The hilt is horn and is over the average too. I cant resist thinking that the pommel's shape symbolizes a wild bird head. Total 50 cm.I would like to any comments and any additional info. regards Attached Images

22nd September 2005, 10:19 AM	#4
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Thank you very much Justin. Rivkin, yes Surmene is a town in Trabzon province and this type is named after that town. They were mainly made there. I have seen exactly same way stamped and fullered but straight kindjal blades with Caucassian scabbards. Means it was once a serious blade exporter town I guess. (Today they focus on not blades, but have upgraded to very good guns and rifles production) I got a small yataghan from the same dealer in Istanbul as well. He insists it is a Levent (Turkish naval soldier) arm, short so easy to carry in belt while performing duties on board, but I am not sure..Perhaps just to add some more taste to the story. Attached Images Last edited by erlikhan; 22nd September 2005 at 10:35 AM.

22nd September 2005, 06:03 PM	#6
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	If you visit Turkey's Black Sea region, you will see that ethnic Lazs are all Muslim, live mainly out of Trabzon province, you must go east in Rize and Artvin till Georgian border to see them in small population like 100.000 and in Trabzon people can accept "Laz" as just something folkloric if anybody calls them so for joke or something like that, but almost none of them accept Laz identity when somebody seriously names them so ethnically,insisting even can cause fight sometimes. I havent heard anything like Laz Janissaries, as Lazs have been Muslim since centuries ago, so how could they be taken as janissary? But if there are available sources about it, i would like to examine. I think many people abroad, confuse local Black sea Greeks, who lived in that region till 1920's as a minority and Lazs somehow, and as far as i observe, generally western collectors like combining every weapon type from any part of the world to individual separate tribes, but according to me, the nuances in styles dont have so definite micro ethnical but more geographical origins in larger scales. regards Last edited by erlikhan; 22nd September 2005 at 06:36 PM.

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22nd September 2005, 01:17 AM	#2
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	Absoloutely gorgeous! I have only seen a few of these but that is probably the nicest yet,congrats!

22nd September 2005, 07:10 AM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	surmene like in Trabzon, Lazastan ?

22nd September 2005, 05:29 PM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I've spoken with a couple of Laz martial arts experts. One should take their opinions with a grain of salt, but what they said is: a. Traditional Laz weapon is a kindjal. b. Yataghans are not traditional, but appeared mostly due to the influence of "Trabazands Janissaries", laz by origin. c. "Laz Bichaq" has a very _peculiar_ reputation - it's basically a distinct pirate sword.

23rd September 2005, 06:30 PM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Allow me to add the same advice I offered the last time this type of exchange occured: 1. Use PM's or Email if you want to air out your nationalistic grievances. Don't pollute this forum with it. It's not welcome here. 2. Don't respond if a post offends you. Report the post to a Staff member instead. 3. Use the "ignore" feature. It works, and makes a member's posts invisible to you. Yannis and Erlikhan, you are perilously close to losing your posting privileges permanently. If you enjoy this forum as much as we value your contributions, please refrain from this type of conduct in the future.