good day

chregu · 5th June 2010, 06:56 PM

hello together
Today is a good day! smile.
me, this knife was offered, but unfortunately no idea what this is or where it might originate.
can anyone help me?
grüsse Chregu

Tim Simmons · 5th June 2010, 07:26 PM

This is really nice. I think this is from West Afric, Benin and there about's. The bird pommel could allude to the bird of prophecy. I do not know how diffuse that is. I do know that bird symbols are a special motif over a vast West African area.

Lew · 5th June 2010, 09:58 PM

Tim

This does not strike me as West African. The cross guard and ferrule seem too sophisticated to me? I will see if I can come up with something for discussion. Ok here is my take. This could be Indonesian or possibly from one of the islands off India. The hilt and guard seem European in style take and that small oval brass stud on the hilt it reminds me of these. The ferrule also shows similar line work as the hilt on the right. The design on the blade seems to resemble the lotus form seen on many katars. The birds head is a stylized peacock form. On the other hand Let me do a 180 degree on this and this could be French in origin the bird could be a grouse which would make this a hunting piece?

Tim Simmons · 5th June 2010, 10:46 PM

Great fun Lew. I am going to hit straight back with this. The new book "Panga na visu. Manfred A Zirngibl & Alexander Kubetz. Which has the similarity in form? while I look for more. Does not look like Indonesian engraving to me.

Lew · 5th June 2010, 11:20 PM

Tim good shot but notice the cross guard on your example is thin sheet metal where the one in question has been hot rolled or formed to shape. Here is a 18th century French hunting sword. My guess now is that the piece in question is a trousse knife from a set used for hunting. I am pretty sure there was a strong French influence in that part of Africa the piece you posted definately has a strong European style to it.

Jim McDougall · 5th June 2010, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Tim good shot but notice the cross guard on your example is thin sheet metal where the one in question has been hot rolled or formed to shape. Here is a 18th century French hunting sword. My guess now is that the piece in question is a trousse knife from a set used for hunting. I am pretty sure there was a strong French influence in that part of Africa the piece you posted definately has a strong European style to it.

Just saw this....well reasoned suggestion....the rounded blade on this does resemble something seen in European hunting trousse, and with the prevalent European presence colonially in these West African regions certainly would present potential for such case.

Jim McDougall · 5th June 2010, 11:28 PM

I go with Tim on this....the blade with a latchback, stepped distal end and with very unusual rebated point resembles Dahomean weapons (often of the ceremonial form shown by Tim in last post) and often termed 'hwi' (as described in Palau Marti). The geometric motif resembles symbolism that seems familiar in West African material culture, along with seems to possibly represent a snake head ? The python was a key figure in the folk religions there.
There seems an almost undefined similarity in the highly stylized pommel to the mysterious and equally highly stylized pommel of the flyssa. This however does seem more like a birdhead, while that of the flyssa seems to be perhaps, as sometimes suggested, a camel. In any case, the diffusion of these themes between Saharan and West African cultures via trade route traffic is pretty well established.

asomotif · 6th June 2010, 09:10 PM

I am with Tim for the moment.

That, or otherwise maybe a scandinavia butterknife

But what is the size of the piece ?
Chregu, can you advise the dimensions ?

Danke & Gruesse
Willem

katana · 7th June 2010, 12:08 AM

Interesting thread, my first reaction is that it is a Indian colonial piece. I agree with Lew, in that the pommel head looks to be a Peacock. The ferule (silver ?) also looks Asian (India / SEA?). The engraving is more tricky, but still lean towards Asia. The rest definately looks European.

Regards David

A. G. Maisey · 7th June 2010, 03:45 PM

Since this knife was first posted for discussion I have looked at photos and drawings of a great number of knives.

I have only seen one knife that shares some of this knife's features, and that is a French knife designed to (probably) cut candy.

May I ask:-

1)--- how thick is the ricasso?

2)--- how thick is the raised section of the back?

3)--- what is the form of the edge of raised section of the back --- is it flat, or rounded or sharpened?

4)--- what is the cutting edge geometry, ie, the angle of grind?

5)--- geometry again:- what is the nature of the distal taper, ie, the taper from ricasso to point

Thank you.

5th June 2010, 06:56 PM	#1
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	good day hello together Today is a good day! smile. me, this knife was offered, but unfortunately no idea what this is or where it might originate. can anyone help me? grüsse Chregu Attached Images

5th June 2010, 09:58 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim This does not strike me as West African. The cross guard and ferrule seem too sophisticated to me? I will see if I can come up with something for discussion. Ok here is my take. This could be Indonesian or possibly from one of the islands off India. The hilt and guard seem European in style take and that small oval brass stud on the hilt it reminds me of these. The ferrule also shows similar line work as the hilt on the right. The design on the blade seems to resemble the lotus form seen on many katars. The birds head is a stylized peacock form. On the other hand Let me do a 180 degree on this and this could be French in origin the bird could be a grouse which would make this a hunting piece? Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 5th June 2010 at 10:39 PM.

5th June 2010, 10:46 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Great fun Lew. I am going to hit straight back with this. The new book "Panga na visu. Manfred A Zirngibl & Alexander Kubetz. Which has the similarity in form? while I look for more. Does not look like Indonesian engraving to me. Attached Images

5th June 2010, 11:20 PM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim good shot but notice the cross guard on your example is thin sheet metal where the one in question has been hot rolled or formed to shape. Here is a 18th century French hunting sword. My guess now is that the piece in question is a trousse knife from a set used for hunting. I am pretty sure there was a strong French influence in that part of Africa the piece you posted definately has a strong European style to it. Attached Images

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5th June 2010, 07:26 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	This is really nice. I think this is from West Afric, Benin and there about's. The bird pommel could allude to the bird of prophecy. I do not know how diffuse that is. I do know that bird symbols are a special motif over a vast West African area.

5th June 2010, 11:28 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	I go with Tim on this....the blade with a latchback, stepped distal end and with very unusual rebated point resembles Dahomean weapons (often of the ceremonial form shown by Tim in last post) and often termed 'hwi' (as described in Palau Marti). The geometric motif resembles symbolism that seems familiar in West African material culture, along with seems to possibly represent a snake head ? The python was a key figure in the folk religions there. There seems an almost undefined similarity in the highly stylized pommel to the mysterious and equally highly stylized pommel of the flyssa. This however does seem more like a birdhead, while that of the flyssa seems to be perhaps, as sometimes suggested, a camel. In any case, the diffusion of these themes between Saharan and West African cultures via trade route traffic is pretty well established.

6th June 2010, 09:10 PM	#8
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	I am with Tim for the moment. That, or otherwise maybe a scandinavia butterknife But what is the size of the piece ? Chregu, can you advise the dimensions ? Danke & Gruesse Willem

7th June 2010, 12:08 AM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Interesting thread, my first reaction is that it is a Indian colonial piece. I agree with Lew, in that the pommel head looks to be a Peacock. The ferule (silver ?) also looks Asian (India / SEA?). The engraving is more tricky, but still lean towards Asia. The rest definately looks European. Regards David

7th June 2010, 03:45 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Since this knife was first posted for discussion I have looked at photos and drawings of a great number of knives. I have only seen one knife that shares some of this knife's features, and that is a French knife designed to (probably) cut candy. May I ask:- 1)--- how thick is the ricasso? 2)--- how thick is the raised section of the back? 3)--- what is the form of the edge of raised section of the back --- is it flat, or rounded or sharpened? 4)--- what is the cutting edge geometry, ie, the angle of grind? 5)--- geometry again:- what is the nature of the distal taper, ie, the taper from ricasso to point Thank you.