What On Earth Pt. 2

CourseEight · 28th January 2010, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by Ariel:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11361

It now appears to have been sold in earnest, and I was interested in where the original discussion was going to lead. Attaching pictures for future reference.

katana · 28th January 2010, 08:52 PM

Hi CourseEight,
I'm glad you did

.....followed this too after Ariel's post. I noticed a reply (in the listing) that stated .....130cm in length by 6cm wide and weighs approx 12lbs......that is some HEAVYWEIGHT. I don't think anyone could argue that this is an executioner's sword....not tip heavy enough. To me the blade looks Indo-Persian (the decorative forte area seems alien to the blade, probably a welded addition and the hilt possibly African, its difficult to tell whether the hilt is solid iron/steel (covered with leather/rawhide)or just the ball pommel

.

Regards David

Gavin Nugent · 28th January 2010, 08:52 PM

It appears to me at first glance, to be a Chinese spear head mounted for use in the hand, I have 2 Yanyuedao blades that have been used as swords.

My two cents.

Gav

Emanuel · 28th January 2010, 09:02 PM

I'm getting a Filipino fantasy feel

Emanuel

colin henshaw · 28th January 2010, 09:29 PM

It really looks like a made-up, fantasy piece to me...

Regards

katana · 28th January 2010, 10:06 PM

The blade does look well made....the curves are nice and symmetrical...clean, neat mid rib ....probably a flattened diamond cross section. If forged, it seems to have quality....if made by stock removal..much, much less so.

Its the 'strange' forte area.....either deliberately or unfortunately the pictures do not show where the blade and forte meet, forge welded ? arc welded ? The blade seems to be a different to this 'section' both in the structure of the steel and the workmanship.

If a 'composite' made for profit ...why not just attach the Nagan styled blade to a Tulwar or Khanda hilt ? They always seem to sell well on eBay

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 29th January 2010, 12:54 PM

This sword truly is unusual and there have been quite a few very astute and interesting observations, but personally I am most inclined toward Tim's suggestion that this may well be a bearing type sword from West Africa. In these regions, there is a very strong element in snake symbolism, which may well account for the interesting recurved section of the blade. It seems that the disc with cross device is something I have seen associated with symbolics from these regions also, but also, cannot distinctly place it.

The inclination toward fantasy assessments is quite expectable, and the often almost bizarre shapes in weapons from Africa have characteristically drawn these views. It is well known that items with the overall appearance as weapons often serve as symbolically stylized regalia in ceremonial use in many tribal cultures in Africa, and are one of the reasons these items are so often distinctly included in its art.

All best regards,
Jim

katana · 29th January 2010, 01:40 PM

Hi Jim,
I believe the hilt/forte section of the sword is West African, I too have seen the cross symbol before....and like you and Tim cannot 'place' it. The 'guard' looks like some of the Akan goldweight designs ....and I wouldn't be surprised if the 'cross' symbol is Akan (or neighbouring regions). Although not in this 'sample' of symbols, here are a few which are quite stylised ...and some similar....
http://www.adinkra.org/htmls/adinkra_index.htm

Its the main section of the blade that seems to be the

.....yes perfect for the symbolism of the snake....but seems unlikely to be locally made. Could such blades been supplied as imported 'trade blades' ? ....I think unlikely. Perhaps the blade was traded with the East Coast (via India, trade between India and the West coast has been well established for hundreds of years)... and carried overland to the West via the numerous trade routes.

I also agree with you and Tim, a status sword makes sense, if the hilt is solid iron/steel the weight could improve the balance, if carried, ceremonially 'upright'.

I wonder whether a fellow formite bought this, and if they did, I hope they post it.

Regards David

fearn · 29th January 2010, 06:32 PM

While I could go with an African bearing sword, I've seen that circle on Chinese blades before. I agree with Gav: it feels like a composite piece based on a Chinese original. I'm not happy about the rawhide(?) and copper wire binding. It looks crude. My guess is that the basal half of the blade was cut down from a longer sword, and/or the base was welded onto an existing chinese sword blade. The function of the current piece is what I don't get.

Best,

F

Gavin Nugent · 1st February 2010, 01:33 PM

Some images as promised. The red background of from an ebay item sold a little while ago, the Hudiedao varient is from my personal gallery collection and the other was offered to me some time back.

Gav

katana · 1st February 2010, 02:29 PM

G'day Gav,
thanks for the conclusive proof, I knew I had seen this design (coin) before and from memory believed I had seen it on an African weapon.
Strangely, the first polearm has two bands of a zig zag design ....almost identical to the decoration on one of my African spears....go figure

.

Gav, the likely use of lead for the hilt ...is this unusual for a Chinese piece ? Can we assume this is a 'temple' piece ....

Kind Regards
David

Gavin Nugent · 1st February 2010, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Gav, the likely use of lead for the hilt ...is this unusual for a Chinese piece ? Can we assume this is a 'temple' piece ....

Kind Regards
David

Hi David,

I would not assume anything, personally I think someone in recent times decided to put a handle on it. The piece to my knowledge serves no votive purpose. It is a good idea to use lead though, some sort of counter balance would be needed for a blade that long. If it was mine, I would do away with the handle and wrapping and display it for what i think it is, a nice example of a spear head.

Gav

28th January 2010, 03:29 PM	#1
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	What On Earth Pt. 2 Originally posted by Ariel: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11361 It now appears to have been sold in earnest, and I was interested in where the original discussion was going to lead. Attaching pictures for future reference. Attached Images

28th January 2010, 08:52 PM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Spear head It appears to me at first glance, to be a Chinese spear head mounted for use in the hand, I have 2 Yanyuedao blades that have been used as swords. My two cents. Gav

29th January 2010, 12:54 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,971	This sword truly is unusual and there have been quite a few very astute and interesting observations, but personally I am most inclined toward Tim's suggestion that this may well be a bearing type sword from West Africa. In these regions, there is a very strong element in snake symbolism, which may well account for the interesting recurved section of the blade. It seems that the disc with cross device is something I have seen associated with symbolics from these regions also, but also, cannot distinctly place it. The inclination toward fantasy assessments is quite expectable, and the often almost bizarre shapes in weapons from Africa have characteristically drawn these views. It is well known that items with the overall appearance as weapons often serve as symbolically stylized regalia in ceremonial use in many tribal cultures in Africa, and are one of the reasons these items are so often distinctly included in its art. All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 29th January 2010 at 06:25 PM.

1st February 2010, 01:33 PM	#10
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	images Some images as promised. The red background of from an ebay item sold a little while ago, the Hudiedao varient is from my personal gallery collection and the other was offered to me some time back. Gav Attached Images

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28th January 2010, 08:52 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi CourseEight, I'm glad you did .....followed this too after Ariel's post. I noticed a reply (in the listing) that stated .....130cm in length by 6cm wide and weighs approx 12lbs......that is some HEAVYWEIGHT. I don't think anyone could argue that this is an executioner's sword....not tip heavy enough. To me the blade looks Indo-Persian (the decorative forte area seems alien to the blade, probably a welded addition and the hilt possibly African, its difficult to tell whether the hilt is solid iron/steel (covered with leather/rawhide)or just the ball pommel . Regards David

28th January 2010, 09:02 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I'm getting a Filipino fantasy feel Emanuel

28th January 2010, 09:29 PM	#5
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	It really looks like a made-up, fantasy piece to me... Regards

28th January 2010, 10:06 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	The blade does look well made....the curves are nice and symmetrical...clean, neat mid rib ....probably a flattened diamond cross section. If forged, it seems to have quality....if made by stock removal..much, much less so. Its the 'strange' forte area.....either deliberately or unfortunately the pictures do not show where the blade and forte meet, forge welded ? arc welded ? The blade seems to be a different to this 'section' both in the structure of the steel and the workmanship. If a 'composite' made for profit ...why not just attach the Nagan styled blade to a Tulwar or Khanda hilt ? They always seem to sell well on eBay Regards David

29th January 2010, 01:40 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jim, I believe the hilt/forte section of the sword is West African, I too have seen the cross symbol before....and like you and Tim cannot 'place' it. The 'guard' looks like some of the Akan goldweight designs ....and I wouldn't be surprised if the 'cross' symbol is Akan (or neighbouring regions). Although not in this 'sample' of symbols, here are a few which are quite stylised ...and some similar.... http://www.adinkra.org/htmls/adinkra_index.htm Its the main section of the blade that seems to be the .....yes perfect for the symbolism of the snake....but seems unlikely to be locally made. Could such blades been supplied as imported 'trade blades' ? ....I think unlikely. Perhaps the blade was traded with the East Coast (via India, trade between India and the West coast has been well established for hundreds of years)... and carried overland to the West via the numerous trade routes. I also agree with you and Tim, a status sword makes sense, if the hilt is solid iron/steel the weight could improve the balance, if carried, ceremonially 'upright'. I wonder whether a fellow formite bought this, and if they did, I hope they post it. Regards David

29th January 2010, 06:32 PM	#9
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	While I could go with an African bearing sword, I've seen that circle on Chinese blades before. I agree with Gav: it feels like a composite piece based on a Chinese original. I'm not happy about the rawhide(?) and copper wire binding. It looks crude. My guess is that the basal half of the blade was cut down from a longer sword, and/or the base was welded onto an existing chinese sword blade. The function of the current piece is what I don't get. Best, F

1st February 2010, 02:29 PM	#11
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	G'day Gav, thanks for the conclusive proof, I knew I had seen this design (coin) before and from memory believed I had seen it on an African weapon. Strangely, the first polearm has two bands of a zig zag design ....almost identical to the decoration on one of my African spears....go figure . Gav, the likely use of lead for the hilt ...is this unusual for a Chinese piece ? Can we assume this is a 'temple' piece .... Kind Regards David