What did I just buy?

CourseEight · 7th October 2007, 07:50 PM

Hi --

I really took to this for some reason, but I have no idea what it is:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=120167378373

I'm guessing some sort of late 19th Century parade item? Or is this actually a functional form of weapon?

Any information would be great!

--Radleigh

Jim McDougall · 8th October 2007, 12:55 AM

Hi Radleigh,
Most interesting item, but certainly does not seem like an axe or mace. As noted, the nagan theme in blade center is key and accented by the serrated edges, also often associated with that theme. The ribs that run parallel to the naga center seem to correspond to some early Vijayanagara katar blades, which is worthy of note though not suggesting this item is necessarily from that region.

It is interesting that the blade or head on this hafted item corresponds visually to the European 'partizan' polearms often carried by guards of dignitaries (Stone p.483) especially a French example c.1690 which has the symmetrical serrated edges on a somewhat leaf shaped profile. While obviously free association and not suggesting direct influence, the comparison again is worthy of note.

I would suggest this is probably as you note, a parade or processional weapon from India, the age best determined by examining the patination since no direct style comparison is available. These hafted weapons seem to have been most prevalent in northern regions such as Gujerat with the bhuj and the hafted maces etc often used by Rajputs.

When I first saw this, I could not resist thinking this unusual serrated leaf shape made me think of something I had seen somewhere and kept thinking of Sinhalese polearms, but the shorter haft brought to mind the bhuj and maces I have mentioned.

ariel · 8th October 2007, 02:12 AM

It gives a visual impression of being shortened. Check the ends of the fullers: any sign of alteration?

Jim McDougall · 8th October 2007, 03:44 AM

Ariel has a good point, any chance this might be one of those katar blades, usually wide and triangular in shape, reprofiled and cut down?

CourseEight · 8th October 2007, 04:53 AM

Thanks a bunch for your thoughts. I haven't yet received the item, so I can't say yet if there are signs of shortening, or if there are signs that the blade was removed from a katar. I have never seen a katar with such a "ball" at the base of the blade, nor one with a snake going down the middle, so I'd love to see pictures for comparison. I've found this thread on the old forum about so-called "katars on a stick"

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000729.html

No pictures, unfortunately, but this one (much later than mine I think, and far more obviously a katar) ended on ebay recently:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=009

I'll certainly post pictures of the key areas when I receive it! I appreciate your help,

--Radleigh

rand · 8th October 2007, 06:53 PM

Hello Radleigh,

This is an interesting and unuasual weapon. Have been unable to find a similar example to reference it by, but that is not too surprising with the number and variety of weapons from India, especially when you couple that with the notion that the higher end arms are published more often.

More information after you receive it will help. Is the tip sharpened? With the fullers running the length of the blade this suggests stiffening for a thrust. The scallops edges would benefit any cutting action, thrusting or slashing. The handle length looks good for a hand held close combat weapon.

Agree with Jims astute diagnosis of the symbology of the decoration.

Looking forward to seeing more feedback on this object, gotta love the Indiana Jones-like appeal it has.

rand

Tim Simmons · 8th October 2007, 07:15 PM

I do not think this has been shortened, the snake graduates in size speeds up in zig-zags and finishes perfectly in the design.

Tim Simmons · 9th October 2007, 12:12 PM

I think you have a processional staff carried by somebody portraying Shiva. look at the shape of the one it this pic of an eighth century carving. Shiva is very often seen with snake the lord of snakes something like that.

He has a big one here

Jim McDougall · 10th October 2007, 05:10 AM

Yay Tim!!! Thats it!!
OK, now back to the razor thread!!!

olikara · 10th October 2007, 08:58 AM

Tim,
Yes, that is exactly what it is.

Jim,
You may be right in the sense that this object is not a functional weapon.

Attached find a photo of Kartikeya. He is invariably shown with this weapon rather than Shiva (Since the past couple of centuries, atleast).

Various parts of India represent deities in different ways and the weapons they carry also vary with region and era. Shiva was earlier (1st Millenium) shown with a different weapon but he has now changed his weapon of choice to a Trident

Shiva is nowadays (and usually in the past) shown with 4 essential things:
1. Trident
2. Small Drum
3. A Snake around his neck.
4. Water flowing out of his hairlocks.

I think there is a possibility of it being an appendage to a Hindu Idol (Shiva as Tim showed or more probably his son, Kartikeya also called Murugan in South India) who is more often than Shiva depicted with this sort of a weapon.

It may be a possibility that this item was separated from some Hindu Idol, why we do not know, and found it's way into eBay. The length of the weapon may also be an indicator of this.

But then, this is only my conjecture.

katana · 10th October 2007, 01:47 PM

Also found this, notice the same shaped 'staff'

KNIFE WITH CRESCENT AND CIRCLE ORNAMENTS
ASIAN ETHNOGRAPHIC COLLECTION
Catalog No: 70.0/ 5903
Culture: INDIAN
Locale: AMRITSAR
Country: INDIA
Material: METAL (STEEL)
Dimensions: L:12.6 W:7.7 H:.3 [in CM]
Donor: HILDBURGH
Accession No: 1932-27

7th October 2007, 07:50 PM	#1
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	What did I just buy? Hi -- I really took to this for some reason, but I have no idea what it is: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=120167378373 I'm guessing some sort of late 19th Century parade item? Or is this actually a functional form of weapon? Any information would be great! --Radleigh Attached Images

8th October 2007, 06:53 PM	#6
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Interesting Weapons Hello Radleigh, This is an interesting and unuasual weapon. Have been unable to find a similar example to reference it by, but that is not too surprising with the number and variety of weapons from India, especially when you couple that with the notion that the higher end arms are published more often. More information after you receive it will help. Is the tip sharpened? With the fullers running the length of the blade this suggests stiffening for a thrust. The scallops edges would benefit any cutting action, thrusting or slashing. The handle length looks good for a hand held close combat weapon. Agree with Jims astute diagnosis of the symbology of the decoration. Looking forward to seeing more feedback on this object, gotta love the Indiana Jones-like appeal it has. rand

9th October 2007, 12:12 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,824	I think you have a processional staff carried by somebody portraying Shiva. look at the shape of the one it this pic of an eighth century carving. Shiva is very often seen with snake the lord of snakes something like that. He has a big one here Last edited by Tim Simmons; 9th October 2007 at 05:44 PM.

10th October 2007, 08:58 AM	#10
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 101	Tim, Yes, that is exactly what it is. Jim, You may be right in the sense that this object is not a functional weapon. Attached find a photo of Kartikeya. He is invariably shown with this weapon rather than Shiva (Since the past couple of centuries, atleast). Various parts of India represent deities in different ways and the weapons they carry also vary with region and era. Shiva was earlier (1st Millenium) shown with a different weapon but he has now changed his weapon of choice to a Trident Shiva is nowadays (and usually in the past) shown with 4 essential things: 1. Trident 2. Small Drum 3. A Snake around his neck. 4. Water flowing out of his hairlocks. I think there is a possibility of it being an appendage to a Hindu Idol (Shiva as Tim showed or more probably his son, Kartikeya also called Murugan in South India) who is more often than Shiva depicted with this sort of a weapon. It may be a possibility that this item was separated from some Hindu Idol, why we do not know, and found it's way into eBay. The length of the weapon may also be an indicator of this. But then, this is only my conjecture. Attached Images

10th October 2007, 01:47 PM	#11
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Also found this, notice the same shaped 'staff' KNIFE WITH CRESCENT AND CIRCLE ORNAMENTS ASIAN ETHNOGRAPHIC COLLECTION Catalog No: 70.0/ 5903 Culture: INDIAN Locale: AMRITSAR Country: INDIA Material: METAL (STEEL) Dimensions: L:12.6 W:7.7 H:.3 [in CM] Donor: HILDBURGH Accession No: 1932-27 Attached Images

8th October 2007, 12:55 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,100	Hi Radleigh, Most interesting item, but certainly does not seem like an axe or mace. As noted, the nagan theme in blade center is key and accented by the serrated edges, also often associated with that theme. The ribs that run parallel to the naga center seem to correspond to some early Vijayanagara katar blades, which is worthy of note though not suggesting this item is necessarily from that region. It is interesting that the blade or head on this hafted item corresponds visually to the European 'partizan' polearms often carried by guards of dignitaries (Stone p.483) especially a French example c.1690 which has the symmetrical serrated edges on a somewhat leaf shaped profile. While obviously free association and not suggesting direct influence, the comparison again is worthy of note. I would suggest this is probably as you note, a parade or processional weapon from India, the age best determined by examining the patination since no direct style comparison is available. These hafted weapons seem to have been most prevalent in northern regions such as Gujerat with the bhuj and the hafted maces etc often used by Rajputs. When I first saw this, I could not resist thinking this unusual serrated leaf shape made me think of something I had seen somewhere and kept thinking of Sinhalese polearms, but the shorter haft brought to mind the bhuj and maces I have mentioned.

8th October 2007, 02:12 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It gives a visual impression of being shortened. Check the ends of the fullers: any sign of alteration?

8th October 2007, 03:44 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,100	Ariel has a good point, any chance this might be one of those katar blades, usually wide and triangular in shape, reprofiled and cut down?

8th October 2007, 04:53 AM	#5
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Thanks a bunch for your thoughts. I haven't yet received the item, so I can't say yet if there are signs of shortening, or if there are signs that the blade was removed from a katar. I have never seen a katar with such a "ball" at the base of the blade, nor one with a snake going down the middle, so I'd love to see pictures for comparison. I've found this thread on the old forum about so-called "katars on a stick" http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000729.html No pictures, unfortunately, but this one (much later than mine I think, and far more obviously a katar) ended on ebay recently: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=009 I'll certainly post pictures of the key areas when I receive it! I appreciate your help, --Radleigh

8th October 2007, 07:15 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,824	I do not think this has been shortened, the snake graduates in size speeds up in zig-zags and finishes perfectly in the design.

10th October 2007, 05:10 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,100	Yay Tim!!! Thats it!! OK, now back to the razor thread!!!