German sword for coment

[serdar]

Its German, its very nice, high quality blade and steel, it has passau marks!? (Im not sure), end of 16 begining of 17 century? annnddd thats all i know.

Any info is wellcome.

[serdar]

P

[corrado26]

I do not know wether this is a German sword or not, but what I know is that the blade is a Toledo one. The "T"-mark is definite.

[Merenti]

Hey Serdar, What you're showing here is a beautiful sword, and you're right. It's described in literature as a German sword. It usually has a mix of different brands (Toledo/Solingen). The blade usually has the words "Me fecit solingen." It can be dated to around 1620-1660. It was probably carried by rondarts.

[serdar]

Originally Posted by corrado26

I do not know wether this is a German sword or not, but what I know is that the blade is a Toledo one. The "T"-mark is definite.

Hello Corrado26, thank you on an info, reason i thought it is german is becouse of that mark T with O above and crown, in some books it is placed at passau blades? Allso in this forum.

Number 12 on the picture.

[serdar]

Originally Posted by Merenti

Hey Serdar, What you're showing here is a beautiful sword, and you're right. It's described in literature as a German sword. It usually has a mix of different brands (Toledo/Solingen). The blade usually has the words "Me fecit solingen." It can be dated to around 1620-1660. It was probably carried by rondarts.

Thank you on an info Merenti, i saw those kind of blades, me fecit solingen, what do you think are the crosses makers mark allso, or it has to do with religious content?

[Radboud]

Hi Serder, thanks for showing this sword. Is it from your collection?

They're a great sword and appear to have a long service history. Often associated with naval use, this is likely incorrect though as they are quite a common type with lots of examples out there. They are also surprisingly uniform given the time they're from.

The Royal Armouries online catalogue lists at least three examples:

IX.172

IX.182

IX.184

I think this one is a composite

Plus there are several in the Dutch National Military Museum.

Forum member Cathy Brimage started a good topic on these with comments by Dutch military historian and author J.P. Puype, who theorised that these were cavalry swords.

Certainly in the catalogue "Van Maurits naar Munster - tactiek en triomf van het Staatse leger" by J.P. Puype & A.A. Wiekart they show one on p.g. 102 described as Broadsword for Cavalry circa 1585 - 1600 with the note that the had a long service life.

Personally, they seem short for cavalry use, but I suspect that there is a Dutch connection as the fledgling nation came out of the 80 years of war with the Spanish.

On your sword the Crown over OT mark seems to be fairly prevalent on the examples I've seen, and it is present on the example I have. I know it's popular to associate every T under a crown stamp as being from Toledo, but I doubt that is the case here. Why stamp the blade "Made in Solingen" if it was made in Toledo when the popular trend was to forge blades as having been made in Toledo?

[Radboud]

Taking another look at the sword you posted, Serdar, I have some concerns about the authenticity of the blade. The Ricasso is too simple compared to the other examples I've seen, the execution of the central fuller looks wrong, and the Crown over OT is offset to one side when all the examples I've seen place the stamps in the middle just above the tang.

Also, why does it say "ME FECIT" on both sides of the blade? That's saying "Made in" and Made in". It's meaning less.

[serdar]

Originally Posted by Radboud

Hi Serder, thanks for showing this sword. Is it from your collection?

They're a great sword and appear to have a long service history. Often associated with naval use, this is likely incorrect though as they are quite a common type with lots of examples out there. They are also surprisingly uniform given the time they're from.

The Royal Armouries online catalogue lists at least three examples:

IX.172

IX.182

IX.184

I think this one is a composite

Plus there are several in the Dutch National Military Museum.

Forum member Cathy Brimage started a good topic on these with comments by Dutch military historian and author J.P. Puype, who theorised that these were cavalry swords.

Certainly in the catalogue "Van Maurits naar Munster - tactiek en triomf van het Staatse leger" by J.P. Puype & A.A. Wiekart they show one on p.g. 102 described as Broadsword for Cavalry circa 1585 - 1600 with the note that the had a long service life.

Personally, they seem short for cavalry use, but I suspect that there is a Dutch connection as the fledgling nation came out of the 80 years of war with the Spanish.

On your sword the Crown over OT mark seems to be fairly prevalent on the examples I've seen, and it is present on the example I have. I know it's popular to associate every T under a crown stamp as being from Toledo, but I doubt that is the case here. Why stamp the blade "Made in Solingen" if it was made in Toledo when the popular trend was to forge blades as having been made in Toledo?

Nice Radboud, thank you on a post, yes it is in my colection.
Guy i bought it from, has an amazing colection from period 14-17 century.

He said it was german, and that it was used in town? Like the town knights used them, i realy dont know, first time that i meet with that kind of a sword.
But i do remember he mentioned something about cavalry, but as you said it seems little short for horse use?

About mark, on several places i found identical mark and they place it as passau mark, but as i said, on this one, i realy dont know.

It would definetly be silly to put made in solingen on a toledo blade.

Yours is very nice example!

[serdar]

Originally Posted by Radboud

Taking another look at the sword you posted, Serdar, I have some concerns about the authenticity of the blade. The Ricasso is too simple compared to the other examples I've seen, the execution of the central fuller looks wrong, and the Crown over OT is offset to one side when all the examples I've seen place the stamps in the middle just above the tang.

Also, why does it say "ME FECIT" on both sides of the blade? That's saying "Made in" and Made in". It's meaning less.

Authenticity in terms that it is old, or markings?

[serdar]

Originally Posted by Radboud

Taking another look at the sword you posted, Serdar, I have some concerns about the authenticity of the blade. The Ricasso is too simple compared to the other examples I've seen, the execution of the central fuller looks wrong, and the Crown over OT is offset to one side when all the examples I've seen place the stamps in the middle just above the tang.

Also, why does it say "ME FECIT" on both sides of the blade? That's saying "Made in" and Made in". It's meaning less.

On both sides is writen ME FECIT, yes without solingen,
Or any makers name.

How do you mean fuller looks wrong?

Im 100% sure it is authentic as it is old and not tampered with, blade, handle, everything, but about markings i realy dont know, i wouldn buy it if i wasnt sure it is untempered and put together or what ever.

Im now looking for one schiavonesca, and my friend said something similar as you, ricasso is wrong, blade etc. But they were produced by hand, they werent produced in a factory, why wouldnt there be a diferent fuller, diferent placement of markings, not writen name, ricasso etc.?

[serdar]

Originally Posted by Radboud

Taking another look at the sword you posted, Serdar, I have some concerns about the authenticity of the blade. The Ricasso is too simple compared to the other examples I've seen, the execution of the central fuller looks wrong, and the Crown over OT is offset to one side when all the examples I've seen place the stamps in the middle just above the tang.

Also, why does it say "ME FECIT" on both sides of the blade? That's saying "Made in" and Made in". It's meaning less.

This example has a ot crown put in a same place as my does, and similar fuler.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by serdar

Authenticity in terms that it is old, or markings?

My personal opinion? Based on the photos you’ve posted, I believe the blade is a more recent replacement. It looks old so it could be from the Victorian times but there’s something off about it.

I’d recommend looking at as many other examples as you can find online.

[serdar]

Originally Posted by Radboud

My personal opinion? Based on the photos you’ve posted, I believe the blade is a more recent replacement. It looks old so it could be from the Victorian times but there’s something off about it.

I’d recommend looking at as many other examples as you can find online.

Im 100% sure it is authentic,
I posted you picture with identicaly put markings and fuller, same as on my example.

It is 100% untapmered and original, definetly not victorian copy, live blade of highest quality.
Why it has two times stamped me fecit, maybe they made mistake, i seen it before, i have dagger that has similar mistake 100% original.

They were produced by hand and humans do make mistakes.
About fuller if you mean becous it doesent go all the way, it dont need to, iw seen it before.

As i said i dont know about type of the sword, but i do know about originality, dont wory it is 100% original.

[Radboud]

That you are happy with the sword is what matters. You have it in your hands while I’m only able to look at the photos posted.

They’re a fun sword and I could very much see them being used on the pike and shot battlefields of the 80 years war or the 30 years war that came later.

[serdar]

Originally Posted by Radboud

That you are happy with the sword is what matters. You have it in your hands while I’m only able to look at the photos posted.

They’re a fun sword and I could very much see them being used on the pike and shot battlefields of the 80 years war or the 30 years war that came later.

They realy are, usualy i wouldnt buy it, but its condition, balance and how it feels in hand sold it.
It allso looks very nice.

[Jim McDougall]

Just some notes on the subject matter discussed from what I have seen in research over the years.
The use of the 'T' with 'O' above and topped with crown was a Toledo town or export mark indeed used in Toledo in 16th into early 17th c. However as far as I have seen is not placed asymmetrically on the forte of blades, but centrally as with makers punzones.

By the early 17th c. Solingen was spuriously using Spanish names and markings, as well as Munich. The only marking or device specifically attributed to Passau as far as sword blades was the stylized chop mark 'running wolf'. In the plate of 'running wolf' markings in Wagner and Bezdek the example accompanied by the 'Toledo' mark (#12) is likely a Solingen blade.
According to Wagner (1967) the running wolf was placed on blades being sent by Solingen to Passau. Passau was a center where various armorers supplied the mercenary groups who often assembled there pending advance into campaigns.

The Toledo mark (crowned TO) it seems would typically be accompanied by makers punzone, which seems in accord with this example. Solingen often used spurious Spanish marks incongruently which of course is not surprising,

While German makers used Spanish marks spuriously, a number of German makers from Solingen worked in Toledo, further complicating matters.

The stamping and marking of blades was not always consistent, nor regulated. The skills, equipment (stamps and tools) and often literacy (including language) often mitigated the style and application of markings could of course vary, while certain conventions were typically followed.
The familiar ME FECIT did normally have Solingen added, in the manner in Toledo the term EN TOLEDO was often used. However, in cases the words ME FECIT used in apparently representative application without literal consideration has often been seen (as in Royal Armories example, pre 1916 acquisition...thank you Radboud for these excellent examples!!).

The use of crosses bracketing words, names, phrases goes back to the ecclesiastic associations of the Frankish 'Ulfberth' blades of N.Europe 9th to 11th c. where that 'name' or 'term' became a hallmark of blade quality .
The crosses placed bracketing this word as I have understood has reprentation of the Bishop as the church often controlled blade making in those times. Sword blades were therefore blessed much in the manner that later markings (such as Passau wolf) were talismanic devices.

The use of crosses in multiples in configuration are more in the convention of the Jerusalem cross, again to ecclestiastical parlance.

The 'anchor' which was in the form of the chi rho and globe and cross was a device popular in Spain, but again adopted by Solingen in their affectation from Spanish blades. These were often embellished and altered with numerous cross bars and perhaps symbolic dots etc.

As far as this sword type it is basically an arming sword of the 'Sinclair' (so called) form common in N. Europe from mid/late 16th c. well into 17th.
The distinctive features are alternating quillons and often globular pommel, while the hilt elements and guards can vary , but shell guard and more complex baskets can occur. It does seem by the number of examples, that the 'shell' type guard was well known, and these can occur with various blades, though it seems usually shorter. These shell guard type with shorter stout blades often found use at sea in the mid to later 17th c. to the point that apocryphally, pirates called their cutlasses colliquially 'shells'.

Well, I wanted to keep this brief

Tolstoy, over and out,

[serdar]

Tolstoy, over and out,[/QUOTE]

Jim thank you very much on the info you shared! ����

[Lee]

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[serdar]

My bad, fixed. 🙃

[AHorsa]

Nice sword. Interestingly the Dutch collectors I know say they are dutch (maybe because of Pulpe´s book?), other think they are German
Whatever, your sword is authentic and belongs together in all parts. No worries about the blade.

What are the dimensions?

KR
Andreas

[Jim McDougall]

Serdar, glad to add notes, and appreciate the opportunity to see these examples.

It does seem there are typically very few distinctions in many cases between Dutch and German sword types, and often there were German makers in the Netherlands. Solingen blades typically were exported via Dutch ports, most notably Rotterdam which is why in England they were referred to as 'Dutch'.
Often the Dutch eponym was used there in the notion of 'Duetsch' (=German) was heard as 'Dutch', but the fact that these blades came from Rotterdam in most cases most likely.

The example shown in "Blanke Wapens" (J.P.Puype, 1981, #59, p.54) shows this type of hilt in an 18th c. configuration (1735) reflecting the remarkably long presence of this design in this case in distinctly Dutch context.

I have always found these shell guard type hangers fascinating for their profound use at sea, and associations of course with pirates.

As Andreas notes, it would be good to know blade length. Often these swords with these type hilts are referred to as cavalry swords, suggesting longer blades.

[serdar]

Hy,


Total lenght 89 cm
Length of blade is 75 cm
Width 4 cm
Thicknes at the base 5 mm.

[Victrix]

Beautiful sword. Yes as people wrote previously it’s presumably a Solingen blade with a Spanish punzone. Maybe the swordsmith thought it clever to leave out the word “Solingen” to easier pass as from Toledo. Passau blades typically have running wolf marks. The fuller looks a bit odd but as was mentioned these are handmade 400 year old things and each one is different. I found a similar sword with a similar fuller in Kovac’s “Ubojite Ostrice.” I also always thought these were infantry arms due to their short length but maybe they were haudegen or cutting swords. The description states Cavalry sword.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by serdar

Hy,
Total lenght 89 cm
Length of blade is 75 cm
Width 4 cm
Thicknes at the base 5 mm.

Thanks for the info, much the same as mine:
Total Length: 870mm
Blade Length: 725mm
Blade Width: 33.8mm
Blade Thickness: 5.2mm
Total Weight: 900gram

[Victrix]

Presence of thumb ring supports use as cavalry haudegen / cutting sword.

[ulfberth]

Hi Cerdar, congratutaltions with the German infantery sword, after collecting for almost 50 years I can say that this a 100% all original sword !
Sometimes it takes time to see it from a picture but here its realy obvious.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[serdar]

Thank you all on kind words!
😃👍