A Questionable Native American Club

Lew · 2nd August 2010, 05:35 PM

Saw this a few weeks ago a the seller swore up and down that is from 1790? Looks like an early to mid 20th century replica to me. Btw only one private bidder.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1790-1810-AUTHEN...item1e5d1fb58b

VANDOO · 3rd August 2010, 04:07 AM

AT THE HIGH STARTING PRICE AND THE CLAIM THAT THAT WAS A GIVE AWAY PRICE AND THE PART ABOUT IT BEING BLOOD STAINED, I SMELLED A RAT.

THE PATINA LOOKS ALL WRONG AND THE PRESENCE OF DIRT IN THE CRACKS, IT LOOKS LIKE AN ARTIFICALLY AGED CLUB AND PATINA. IF THE WOOD IS SOFT LIGHT WEIGHT WOOD THAT WOULD CINCH IT AS A REPLICA FOR ME. A GENERAL RULE IS A WOOD CLUB WILL SPLIT EARLY IN ITS LIFE AND USUALLY NOT WHEN IT IS 100 YEARS OLD UNLESS IT IS MOVED TO A MUCH DIFFERENT CLIMATE. A CLUB SPLIT LIKE THIS ONE WOULD HAVE BEEN WEAKENED AND WOULD MOST LIKELY BE DISCARDED AND THE SPIKE USED TO MAKE A NEW ONE SO IT WOULD HAVE BEEN UNLIKELY TO HAVE SURVIVED AS IT IS NOW. JUST MY GUT FEELINGS ABOUT IT.

aiontay · 3rd August 2010, 04:29 AM

It also looks like they cut across the grain quite a bit on both the handle and the ball, and that is something that you generally want to avoid. You can really see it on the the handle.

Dmitry · 3rd August 2010, 04:33 AM

I have been dealing in only Authentic 19th Century Native American for over 15 years. I can gaurantee you this is 100 % authentic!! no question about it!!!. I am a reputable dealer at the Western and Native American shows...

This says it all for me.

I'm starting the bid at $3500.00 which is a giveaway, I believe in the right hands this could bring upward of $25,000.

Yep, if you try to rob a bank with this thing, you might get $25,ooo.

The piece itself looks like machine-made, aged reenactor's replica [interpret it as you wish

]. I've seen these sold by the sutlers at Fort Ticonderoga. Took some photos as well.

katana · 3rd August 2010, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

I'm starting the bid at $3500.00 which is a giveaway, I believe in the right hands this could bring upward of $25,000.

Yep, if you try to rob a bank with this thing, you might get $25,ooo.

.

It will be interesting to see if this 'chair leg'

is re-listed.....especially if the 'private' bid was an attempt to get the bidding going....afterall the eBay selling fees on $3500 would be hard to swallow for a 'no sale' (assuming the bidder was 'something to do' with the seller .....if true, its likely it will be re-listed due to a 'time waster'......

I do hope that the bid was not genuine

Regards David

Battara · 4th August 2010, 12:12 AM

Yea, I agree. I can see the artificial staining of the wood. And the spike - it should be a knife blade and this "spike" has a flat tip! Hmmm.....

Jim McDougall · 4th August 2010, 05:33 PM

Aside from the consensus of the probable reproduction status of this item, and from I've seen even well made reproduction stuff can get some pretty unbelievable returns, I'd like to look at some history on these.

The ballhead club seems to have been an Iroquian innovation, probably evolving out of much more primitive weapons of course (at least I spared you guys the 'then the earth cooled part') . From what I understand, the word tomahawk actually initially referred to clubs like these. Typically these were burlwood, often from saplings near streams, and the haft and ball often carved and decorated, but most typically did not have spikes. These were blunt force weapons initially, but at some point these seem to have been added. The clubs were noted from early 17th century and by 18th century this form as well as the 'gunstock' type were in use in the woodlands in the East.

Since early type weapons, including stone head clubs were in use often concurrently with these developing types, it seems probable that antlers may have served as a penetrating element before any iron spikes were used. As these tribes moved westward into the Plains, the acquisition of European metalwork became incorporated into the weapons designs. It seems that by the time these gunstock and ballhead type clubs came into Plains use, many of them did carry blades in the striking area, sometimes from knife blades or parts of European weapons (some of the 'spikes' seem almost like the protrusions off European spontoons). The Native American tribes, although they did have certain skills with copper, were not ironworkers, so would have used various items either captured, traded or found.

These club type weapons were often not only carved with totemic or clan themes or zoomorphic features, but often colorfully painted. It is believed by many that some of the systematic decoration such as bands or crosses were actually tally numbers.
While it is known that blood obviously would permeate wood material, and probably remain in some traceable characteristic, it should be remembered that similar staining or discoloration may be from the paint used in the decoration of these weapons.

Although I am not speaking to the authenticity or otherwise of this particular item, I wanted to add some historical context and perspective.

The attached is a reproduction said to be modelled on a Sauk/Fox (East Michigan areas) type from mid 18th c. The gunstock type club seems to have come in around earlier 18th, and the description was used by colonists, these were not made from gunstocks! and not modelled on them, as I was once told by Norm Flayderman. I sort of went berserk after seeing "the Last of the Mohicans" researching these!!

Talked to the guy in Tennessee who made the examples for the movie, and said there were five made if I recall.

The other example (bottom right) is from the original auction link, and the weapon we are discussing.

Dmitry · 4th August 2010, 06:29 PM

*

Jim McDougall · 4th August 2010, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

*

*?

Nice carving, thanks.

Robert · 5th August 2010, 03:50 AM

IMHO The so-called spike

in the club that started this post looks to me to be the drive end of a bit (drill bit) that was used in one of the old hand cranked braces (hand operated drill) used up until electric drills became readily available. The pictures below are from Woodworking Magazine, Wikipedia and one from the auction cropped to show the spike better. If I remember correctly these items in this form were not invented until the early 19th century.

Robert

Lew · 5th August 2010, 03:19 PM

Robert you seem to hit it right on the head.

I looks exactly like the back end of that drill bit.

2nd August 2010, 05:35 PM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	A Questionable Native American Club Saw this a few weeks ago a the seller swore up and down that is from 1790? Looks like an early to mid 20th century replica to me. Btw only one private bidder. http://cgi.ebay.com/1790-1810-AUTHEN...item1e5d1fb58b

4th August 2010, 05:33 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,100	Aside from the consensus of the probable reproduction status of this item, and from I've seen even well made reproduction stuff can get some pretty unbelievable returns, I'd like to look at some history on these. The ballhead club seems to have been an Iroquian innovation, probably evolving out of much more primitive weapons of course (at least I spared you guys the 'then the earth cooled part') . From what I understand, the word tomahawk actually initially referred to clubs like these. Typically these were burlwood, often from saplings near streams, and the haft and ball often carved and decorated, but most typically did not have spikes. These were blunt force weapons initially, but at some point these seem to have been added. The clubs were noted from early 17th century and by 18th century this form as well as the 'gunstock' type were in use in the woodlands in the East. Since early type weapons, including stone head clubs were in use often concurrently with these developing types, it seems probable that antlers may have served as a penetrating element before any iron spikes were used. As these tribes moved westward into the Plains, the acquisition of European metalwork became incorporated into the weapons designs. It seems that by the time these gunstock and ballhead type clubs came into Plains use, many of them did carry blades in the striking area, sometimes from knife blades or parts of European weapons (some of the 'spikes' seem almost like the protrusions off European spontoons). The Native American tribes, although they did have certain skills with copper, were not ironworkers, so would have used various items either captured, traded or found. These club type weapons were often not only carved with totemic or clan themes or zoomorphic features, but often colorfully painted. It is believed by many that some of the systematic decoration such as bands or crosses were actually tally numbers. While it is known that blood obviously would permeate wood material, and probably remain in some traceable characteristic, it should be remembered that similar staining or discoloration may be from the paint used in the decoration of these weapons. Although I am not speaking to the authenticity or otherwise of this particular item, I wanted to add some historical context and perspective. The attached is a reproduction said to be modelled on a Sauk/Fox (East Michigan areas) type from mid 18th c. The gunstock type club seems to have come in around earlier 18th, and the description was used by colonists, these were not made from gunstocks! and not modelled on them, as I was once told by Norm Flayderman. I sort of went berserk after seeing "the Last of the Mohicans" researching these!! Talked to the guy in Tennessee who made the examples for the movie, and said there were five made if I recall. The other example (bottom right) is from the original auction link, and the weapon we are discussing. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 4th August 2010 at 05:44 PM.

4th August 2010, 06:29 PM	#8
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	* Attached Images

5th August 2010, 03:50 AM	#10
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	IMHO The so-called spike in the club that started this post looks to me to be the drive end of a bit (drill bit) that was used in one of the old hand cranked braces (hand operated drill) used up until electric drills became readily available. The pictures below are from Woodworking Magazine, Wikipedia and one from the auction cropped to show the spike better. If I remember correctly these items in this form were not invented until the early 19th century. Robert Attached Images Last edited by Robert Coleman; 5th August 2010 at 05:51 AM.

3rd August 2010, 04:07 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	AT THE HIGH STARTING PRICE AND THE CLAIM THAT THAT WAS A GIVE AWAY PRICE AND THE PART ABOUT IT BEING BLOOD STAINED, I SMELLED A RAT. THE PATINA LOOKS ALL WRONG AND THE PRESENCE OF DIRT IN THE CRACKS, IT LOOKS LIKE AN ARTIFICALLY AGED CLUB AND PATINA. IF THE WOOD IS SOFT LIGHT WEIGHT WOOD THAT WOULD CINCH IT AS A REPLICA FOR ME. A GENERAL RULE IS A WOOD CLUB WILL SPLIT EARLY IN ITS LIFE AND USUALLY NOT WHEN IT IS 100 YEARS OLD UNLESS IT IS MOVED TO A MUCH DIFFERENT CLIMATE. A CLUB SPLIT LIKE THIS ONE WOULD HAVE BEEN WEAKENED AND WOULD MOST LIKELY BE DISCARDED AND THE SPIKE USED TO MAKE A NEW ONE SO IT WOULD HAVE BEEN UNLIKELY TO HAVE SURVIVED AS IT IS NOW. JUST MY GUT FEELINGS ABOUT IT.

3rd August 2010, 04:29 AM	#3
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	It also looks like they cut across the grain quite a bit on both the handle and the ball, and that is something that you generally want to avoid. You can really see it on the the handle.

3rd August 2010, 04:33 AM	#4
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	I have been dealing in only Authentic 19th Century Native American for over 15 years. I can gaurantee you this is 100 % authentic!! no question about it!!!. I am a reputable dealer at the Western and Native American shows... This says it all for me. I'm starting the bid at $3500.00 which is a giveaway, I believe in the right hands this could bring upward of $25,000. Yep, if you try to rob a bank with this thing, you might get $25,ooo. The piece itself looks like machine-made, aged reenactor's replica [interpret it as you wish ]. I've seen these sold by the sutlers at Fort Ticonderoga. Took some photos as well.

4th August 2010, 12:12 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,257	Yea, I agree. I can see the artificial staining of the wood. And the spike - it should be a knife blade and this "spike" has a flat tip! Hmmm.....

5th August 2010, 03:19 PM	#11
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Robert you seem to hit it right on the head. I looks exactly like the back end of that drill bit.