searching for the right dapur??

[sirek]

I want to share this keris with you, because not often seen on the forum pamor: Tejo kinurung . ( sheath inlaid with turtle shell )

but 'm still looking for the right dapur.

Tikel-Alis is short, deep and with a sharp bend

can anyone define the dapur?

I appreciate any and all comments,

[A. G. Maisey]

Tilam upih.

This is a dhapur about which there seems to be universal agreement, I have not yet seen any pakem that gives a keris with these features a different name, nor that identifies dhapur tilam upih with different characteristics.

[sirek]

thanks again you for you comment

[ganjawulung]

Yes, a very typically tilamupih. And the naming of pamor, it seems more "adeg tiga" (illustration below, from Hadiwidjaja's copy) than "teja kinurung". Three lines, almost paralel in the middle of the blade is called "adeg tiga". But "teja kinurung" is only one line in the middle ("sada sak-ler"), surrounded by "tepen pamor" or line along the both sharp sides of the blade...

GANJAWULUNG

[A. G. Maisey]

I agree with you Pak Ganja.

I'd call it adeg tiga too.

But I try to avoid playing the name game with pamor in particular, because as sure as I say its one thing, somebody else will tell me its something else or that his grandfather used to call it such & such.

You and I both know just how contentious this name business can be, and this Forum is tending more towards a classification resource every day, rather than a discussion group with an interest in some of the deeper aspects of the keris.

In fact, I'd be more than happy if somebody called this pamor "three upright stripes".

This means the same as adeg tiga, and really, I just can't get too excited about this focus on names and classifications.

For a little bit of variation, why not comment on the current symbolic meaning of this dhapur and mention how and why we often find this particular form as a family pusaka? This might be a bit more interesting than playing the file-clerk game.

[ganjawulung]

I agree with you too in some way,

But is it forbidden to do "file-clerk game", "name game" (your term) in this forum? I know, you are more knowledgeable than us. But I think we can not avoid this plaything like this in the keris world. I still keep your words too, that "keris is kraton art"...

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The names of the various dhapurs are rooted in the past.

What has been driven home to me again, and again, and again over the years by a number of people, is that keris art is Karaton art, thus only a Karaton has the right and the obligation to bestow a name for a dhapur, or a pamor, upon a keris. Similarly, only a Karaton can determine if a keris is legitimate in its interpretations, or not.

It follows that within the area where a Karaton is paramount, only those keris which fall within the guidelines accepted by that Karaton can be accepted as legitimate representations of the Karaton's art..

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

For this reason, I believe that if ever we wish to involve ourselves in this most extreme of all Name Games, which is the naming of the dhapur and pamor of a keris, we must at all times quote the pakem or reference that we are using as our guide.

To simply give an opinion is less than useless, no matter who gives that opinion, because no person now living can over-rule the parameters that have been previously set by a Ruler, except the current Ruler, and if the source of the opinion is not based in a karaton's guidelines, then it is a very arrogant person indeed who is prepared to give an opinion without either quoting his reference, or providing an argument to support the opinion.

How about other "details names"? Is it forbidden too, if we call it "jejeran" in spite of hilt? or "warangka", in spite of "sheath"? Or "pamor", in spite of damascene? Or Malay term? and so on..

Thanks for your respond...

GANJAWULUNG

[Gustav]

For a little bit of variation, why not comment on the current symbolic meaning of this dhapur and mention how and why we often find this particular form as a family pusaka? This might be a bit more interesting than playing the file-clerk game.[/QUOTE]

This were very interesting. From a well known source : Tilam Upih ("sleeping mat") - the Tuah of this Dhapur is that it bestows peace and relaxation upon the owner, becouse of this we find many Keris that are handed down as Pusaka Keris through a family are of this Dhapur.

Probably is this Dhapur a good "catalyst" for the spiritual power of certain Pamor's? There must be a question of suitability between Dhapur and Pamor.

A very interesting early Keris Dhapur Tilam Upih is depicted in Jensen's Krisdisk (sorry for mentioning this source every time), with elongated Blumbangan (Mbata Ngadeg) and Kawi inscription (gold, probably one of the oldest kinatah(?)) on Gonjo.

It were very interesting to learn to know, what are differences between Dhapur Brojol and Tilam Upih, then between Tilam Upih and Tilam Sari: what is the meaning of Tikel Alis and Tingil?

A keris collector clearly should be at the minimum a good ethnologist.