Blade marks on Tulwar sword

kahnjar1 · 10th October 2019, 05:19 AM

Can anyone please ID the blade marks on this Tulwar sword. Thought is that they are possibly of European origin, rather than from India.
Stu

Jim McDougall · 11th October 2019, 03:51 AM

Thank you for moving the pics of this marking group here Stu. In the discussion on ethnographic, we are trying to determine whether this blade is European, or if an Indian made blade with copied European marks.

These 'cogwheel' marks seem well represented in Italian blades, and often occur with the well known 'sickle' marks as well as with varied other deices and configurations. In this example of Stu's closer examination reveals that gold metal inlay (latten) is in the markings. This in my view would suggest German interpretation of the Italian marks.

Hoping that Jasper, Udo and Ulfberth might recognize the roundel (with the dentation often seen on Italian devices) and 'cogwheels' from the many swords they have collectively handled. In Wallace Coll. (Mann, 1962) the only reference on the mark is on late 16th c Swiss dagger. The roundel may be remnants of a 'man in the moon' as seen on some German early 16th c. blades.

Can you guys help?

kahnjar1 · 11th October 2019, 09:56 PM

Blade marks rotated. Looks to be the "Man in the Moon" mark.
Stu

Jim McDougall · 11th October 2019, 11:18 PM

Attached one page from Boccia & Coelho (1975) with groupings of these 'cogwheel' marks and some of the dentated devices (as with sickle marks) often accompanying them. These seem to be early 17th c.

The image with the man in the moon is from early 17th c. German blade and it is enclosed in the roundel, while commonly open in cosmological groupings.

10th October 2019, 05:19 AM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,811	Blade marks on Tulwar sword Can anyone please ID the blade marks on this Tulwar sword. Thought is that they are possibly of European origin, rather than from India. Stu Attached Images

11th October 2019, 09:56 PM	#3
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,811	Blade marks rotated. Looks to be the "Man in the Moon" mark. Stu Attached Images

11th October 2019, 11:18 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Attached one page from Boccia & Coelho (1975) with groupings of these 'cogwheel' marks and some of the dentated devices (as with sickle marks) often accompanying them. These seem to be early 17th c. The image with the man in the moon is from early 17th c. German blade and it is enclosed in the roundel, while commonly open in cosmological groupings. Attached Images

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11th October 2019, 03:51 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Thank you for moving the pics of this marking group here Stu. In the discussion on ethnographic, we are trying to determine whether this blade is European, or if an Indian made blade with copied European marks. These 'cogwheel' marks seem well represented in Italian blades, and often occur with the well known 'sickle' marks as well as with varied other deices and configurations. In this example of Stu's closer examination reveals that gold metal inlay (latten) is in the markings. This in my view would suggest German interpretation of the Italian marks. Hoping that Jasper, Udo and Ulfberth might recognize the roundel (with the dentation often seen on Italian devices) and 'cogwheels' from the many swords they have collectively handled. In Wallace Coll. (Mann, 1962) the only reference on the mark is on late 16th c Swiss dagger. The roundel may be remnants of a 'man in the moon' as seen on some German early 16th c. blades. Can you guys help?