Shamshir with central ridge

ALEX · 19th May 2009, 03:59 PM

I saw this shamshir on eBay. The pronounced central ridge like this is common on Arab/Turkish/Kurdish jambiyas, but this is the first time I saw it on the shamshir blade. Does anyone have any references to it?
Very elegant sword in my opinion with nice blade and super Rhino horn hilt. Congratulations to the buyer!

Atlantia · 19th May 2009, 05:55 PM

What a beautiful sword! Can't really add to what you've said, except to agree!

Bet a light etch is going to make that blade look fantastic.

ALEX · 19th May 2009, 06:24 PM

I also had a feeling it can be wootz/Damascus. It looks so wootzy even without visible pattern:-)

TVV · 19th May 2009, 06:55 PM

I might be imagining things, but I think I might be seeing wootz as well in the blade close-up.
The blade with its two wide fullers reminds me of similar Kindjal blades.
Whatever it is, I agree that it is a very nice sword. Drool.

Regards,
Teodor

asomotif · 19th May 2009, 10:42 PM

I am not into shamshir / wootz etc...

But this blade with the ridge would be a nice wallhanger all the same

In the 3rd picture I would also say that wootz is visible.
And some gold engraving in the middle of the blade.
This might depend on the quality screen you have.
Watching this at work I would not have a clue, but at home the quality is much better(that is good for both me and my boss

)

Atlantia · 20th May 2009, 12:40 AM

Does anyone want to guess if the back edge is a false one or if its fully double edged like a Jambiya?
If it is, I've certainly never seen one like it.
I am very jealous.
What did it end at/sell for?

ALEX · 20th May 2009, 09:38 AM

It is certainly double-edged just like a jambiya. There is no back edge / spine. This is why I thought it's so unique. Went very cheap with "Buy Now" as soon as it was listed:-)

Tim Simmons · 20th May 2009, 03:33 PM

This etched script make me think of Abyssinia or other parts of East Africa? perhaps?

ALEX · 20th May 2009, 04:11 PM

Tim,
Here are more script images. It looks inlayed or 'koftgaried' in gold, not etched. Once again, the sword does look Ottoman, the central rib feature is also Turkish-Arab-Kurdish. Very Interesting.

Tim Simmons · 20th May 2009, 04:52 PM

Very nice, have you tested the metal. I have found so much gold inlay to brass. You can buy a box set of test acids to tell silver, 9ct and 18ct gold and platinum.

Jim McDougall · 21st May 2009, 07:25 AM

This is an incredibly intriguing Ottoman shamshir, and I cannot say I have ever seen a shamshir or any parabolic blade being double edged. This central ridge is indeed characteristic of khanjars and janbiyya of many styles.

One style of janbiyya found in the Asir and the Hejaz of Arabia is quite long, somewhat curved, and with central ridge (Robert Elgood, "Arms and Armour of Arabia , london, 1994, p.76). While this is clearly not a 'sword', it does have distinct length and perhaps the idea of a prestigious, unique shamshir with blade in the style of these profoundly personal daggers might have been somehow commissioned with this in mind.

I would think that this Ottoman shamshir may have been produced in Syria for an Ottoman officer or official possibly garrisoned in these regions, or perhaps with the inscriptions, this may have been a diplomatic gift or presentation for one of the sharifs.

It would be most interesting to know of any other examples of such unusual shamshir blades.

Best regards,
Jim

Dom · 21st May 2009, 01:23 PM

not curious to know what is mentionned on the blade ??

upper part;
- nasr men Allah wa fat
The Victory from Allah (God) with a good

lower part
- mobine ... ??????? (unclear)
conquest .... ????

à +

Dom

Tim Simmons · 21st May 2009, 01:29 PM

Very much like Mahdist sentiment? Very nice curve to the blade, interesting wander to the central ridge.

Gavin Nugent · 21st May 2009, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

not curious to know what is mentionned on the blade ??

upper part;
- nasr men Allah wa fat
The Victory from Allah (God) with a good

lower part
- mobine ... ??????? (unclear)
conquest .... ????

à +

Dom

Your knowledge is amazing and your eagerness to help a blessing.

Regards

Gav

Jim McDougall · 21st May 2009, 03:27 PM

Thank you so much for the translation Dom! That was my next question

It is an incredible asset to have your skills in translating these inscriptions and markings, which add so much to our study to the history of these weapons.

This, or very similar wording seems very present among Muslim invocations on many of the sword blades of the Dar al Islam.

All best regards,
Jim

19th May 2009, 03:59 PM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Shamshir with central ridge I saw this shamshir on eBay. The pronounced central ridge like this is common on Arab/Turkish/Kurdish jambiyas, but this is the first time I saw it on the shamshir blade. Does anyone have any references to it? Very elegant sword in my opinion with nice blade and super Rhino horn hilt. Congratulations to the buyer! Attached Images

20th May 2009, 03:33 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	This etched script make me think of Abyssinia or other parts of East Africa? perhaps? Attached Images

20th May 2009, 04:11 PM	#9
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Tim, Here are more script images. It looks inlayed or 'koftgaried' in gold, not etched. Once again, the sword does look Ottoman, the central rib feature is also Turkish-Arab-Kurdish. Very Interesting. Attached Images

20th May 2009, 04:52 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Very nice, have you tested the metal. I have found so much gold inlay to brass. You can buy a box set of test acids to tell silver, 9ct and 18ct gold and platinum. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 20th May 2009 at 05:24 PM.

21st May 2009, 01:23 PM	#12
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	not curious to know what is mentionned on the blade ?? upper part; - *nasr men Allah wa fat* The Victory from Allah (God) with a good lower part - *mobine ... ??????? (unclear)* conquest .... ???? à + Dom Attached Images

19th May 2009, 05:55 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	What a beautiful sword! Can't really add to what you've said, except to agree! Bet a light etch is going to make that blade look fantastic.

19th May 2009, 06:24 PM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	I also had a feeling it can be wootz/Damascus. It looks so wootzy even without visible pattern:-)

19th May 2009, 06:55 PM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	I might be imagining things, but I think I might be seeing wootz as well in the blade close-up. The blade with its two wide fullers reminds me of similar Kindjal blades. Whatever it is, I agree that it is a very nice sword. Drool. Regards, Teodor

19th May 2009, 10:42 PM	#5
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	I am not into shamshir / wootz etc... But this blade with the ridge would be a nice wallhanger all the same In the 3rd picture I would also say that wootz is visible. And some gold engraving in the middle of the blade. This might depend on the quality screen you have. Watching this at work I would not have a clue, but at home the quality is much better(that is good for both me and my boss )

20th May 2009, 12:40 AM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Does anyone want to guess if the back edge is a false one or if its fully double edged like a Jambiya? If it is, I've certainly never seen one like it. I am very jealous. What did it end at/sell for?

20th May 2009, 09:38 AM	#7
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	It is certainly double-edged just like a jambiya. There is no back edge / spine. This is why I thought it's so unique. Went very cheap with "Buy Now" as soon as it was listed:-)

21st May 2009, 07:25 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	This is an incredibly intriguing Ottoman shamshir, and I cannot say I have ever seen a shamshir or any parabolic blade being double edged. This central ridge is indeed characteristic of khanjars and janbiyya of many styles. One style of janbiyya found in the Asir and the Hejaz of Arabia is quite long, somewhat curved, and with central ridge (Robert Elgood, "Arms and Armour of Arabia , london, 1994, p.76). While this is clearly not a 'sword', it does have distinct length and perhaps the idea of a prestigious, unique shamshir with blade in the style of these profoundly personal daggers might have been somehow commissioned with this in mind. I would think that this Ottoman shamshir may have been produced in Syria for an Ottoman officer or official possibly garrisoned in these regions, or perhaps with the inscriptions, this may have been a diplomatic gift or presentation for one of the sharifs. It would be most interesting to know of any other examples of such unusual shamshir blades. Best regards, Jim

21st May 2009, 01:29 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Very much like Mahdist sentiment? Very nice curve to the blade, interesting wander to the central ridge.

21st May 2009, 03:27 PM	#15
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Thank you so much for the translation Dom! That was my next question It is an incredible asset to have your skills in translating these inscriptions and markings, which add so much to our study to the history of these weapons. This, or very similar wording seems very present among Muslim invocations on many of the sword blades of the Dar al Islam. All best regards, Jim