Early Youth? Fencing Foil

Ranger Rick · 23rd February 2025, 01:20 AM

This is a rather odd one. It appears to be some type of small fencing foil. The length is only 29 inches and it has a very sharp point. Brass hilt and wood handle. Any clues on this? The symbol on the blade appears to have an “S” in the center of it. I have had several fencing foils in the past, but nothing like this??

Interested Party · 25th February 2025, 01:28 PM

Two ideas cross my mind. 1) Part of a set of later dueling swords. 2) Someone shortened a practice foil either where it snapped or to where it appeared to have enough rigidity to penetrate effectively.

Hopefully someone has a better and definitive answer.

Jim McDougall · 25th February 2025, 07:03 PM

I agree with I.P.

This appears to be mid 19th century foil as already noted. The circle with letter is associated with maker, some have letter V, R,H,B, G but S is typically used as Solingen. Most of these blades seem to have been Solingen made, however many were French Couleaux and Klingenthal but unclear on those markings, and Couleaux is often deemed a retailer rather than maker. I have not seen examples with the French markings.
These bar with orb markings with letter have either arrows, dots or other at terminals.
I have not found a schedule of the letter initials but s far, V=J.H. Lau &Co. N.Y; R=Schnitzler Solingen but the S, also Solingen seems to have been Samuel Hoppe Solingen, so hard to say.

Often the blades are marked at root of blade with numbers 3,4,5 which indicate size, and these were used in accord with the physical size of the individual or occasionally in accord with the prowess of the person. I cannot recall details however it indicates there was a range of sizes for adults .

Most foils with arrested point were with a button or flattened like nailhead.
There were however cases where the point was sharp, and it is unclear the circumstances of these. I have seen cases in collections of professional fencers where this was the case. ...but did not pursue further.

Perhaps these were essentially used as dueling epees, and the rebated point removed. In the duel, the purpose was not to badly wound or kill the opponent basically, but simply to draw blood, even if superficial cut.

23rd February 2025, 01:20 AM	#1
Ranger Rick Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Posts: 2	Early Youth? Fencing Foil This is a rather odd one. It appears to be some type of small fencing foil. The length is only 29 inches and it has a very sharp point. Brass hilt and wood handle. Any clues on this? The symbol on the blade appears to have an “S” in the center of it. I have had several fencing foils in the past, but nothing like this?? Attached Images

25th February 2025, 07:03 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,100	I agree with I.P. This appears to be mid 19th century foil as already noted. The circle with letter is associated with maker, some have letter V, R,H,B, G but S is typically used as Solingen. Most of these blades seem to have been Solingen made, however many were French Couleaux and Klingenthal but unclear on those markings, and Couleaux is often deemed a retailer rather than maker. I have not seen examples with the French markings. These bar with orb markings with letter have either arrows, dots or other at terminals. I have not found a schedule of the letter initials but s far, V=J.H. Lau &Co. N.Y; R=Schnitzler Solingen but the S, also Solingen seems to have been Samuel Hoppe Solingen, so hard to say. Often the blades are marked at root of blade with numbers 3,4,5 which indicate size, and these were used in accord with the physical size of the individual or occasionally in accord with the prowess of the person. I cannot recall details however it indicates there was a range of sizes for adults . Most foils with arrested point were with a button or flattened like nailhead. There were however cases where the point was sharp, and it is unclear the circumstances of these. I have seen cases in collections of professional fencers where this was the case. ...but did not pursue further. Perhaps these were essentially used as dueling epees, and the rebated point removed. In the duel, the purpose was not to badly wound or kill the opponent basically, but simply to draw blood, even if superficial cut. Attached Images

25th February 2025, 01:28 PM	#2
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 488	Two ideas cross my mind. 1) Part of a set of later dueling swords. 2) Someone shortened a practice foil either where it snapped or to where it appeared to have enough rigidity to penetrate effectively. Hopefully someone has a better and definitive answer.