Combination of katar and two percussion pistols

Ian · Yesterday, 03:41 PM

This item recently finished at auction. Mid-19th C would be my guess on age. An unusual pairing.
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Jim McDougall · Yesterday, 04:47 PM

Very interesting Ian!! The innovation of Indian armorers is truly fascinating and in the 19th century when the durbars of the Raj became great events that became akin to todays 'gun shows' on the periphery...these guys always tried to impress .
The dual gun actions are percussion, suggesting probably 1840s, but unusual seeing them paired. Flintlock gun actions are well known on hunting swords of 18th century, and the gun production innovations did not escape armorers trying to impress the dignitaries in the princely states.

"Firearms Curiosa", Lewis Winant, 1955, is a good read pertaining to these kinds of unusual weapons.

Thanks for sharing this Ian.....I hope my response doesnt 'kill the thread'.

Tim Simmons · Yesterday, 07:47 PM

Curious about the rough finish. Also the pracitcality. I wonder if is a 19th centruy curio so to speak.

Jim McDougall · Yesterday, 08:04 PM

Good point Tim. This looks pretty rough, and seems like most examples are pretty high end, more for the courts and officials. Apparently Maharaja Raja Ram Singh (1811-1889) was a big fan of combination weapons and BUNDI in Rajasthan a key area for these kinds of weapons.

"Splendors of the Subcontinent: A Princes Tour of India 1875-76" K. Meghani is a good reference for anyone caring to pursue further.

Edster · Yesterday, 08:26 PM

Here's a Youtube that discusses this type of weapon in detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FJ_RdKYd5A

Ed

Tim Simmons · Yesterday, 08:47 PM

Although better made I still have doubts this is really a weapon. Just think of carriage pistols. Also how fine real Indian metalwork can be.

Jim McDougall · Yesterday, 10:22 PM

Kinda like these French 'Apache' revolvers.

Ian · Today, 12:09 AM

Thanks for the responses guys.

I too wonder about the practicality of this item as a weapon. The relatively short blade with only a few inches protruding beyond the pistol muzzles would have had limited penetration for these stabbing weapons. Screw-on barrels and breech loading does not make them very practical pistols either if you needed to reload.

Jim, thanks for the references. Those durbars must have been impressive shows, displaying the manufacturing skills of the various princely states to each other and their subjects.

Jim McDougall · Today, 03:36 AM

I dont know a lot on guns Ian, but those percussion hammers, like the whole setup look pretty weak. When I see these combination weapons I often wonder if they were used, or even intended to be used.

Those durbars from what I have understood were pretty big events bringing together figures and people from many princely states and administrative regions for official business and diplomatic interactions. This attracted many vendors and artisans creating a sort of swap meet type exchange.
I think a lot of the weapons that have come into collecting communities had their origins in these......much like the weapons seen in Egerton (1885).

Yesterday, 03:41 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,449	Combination of katar and two percussion pistols This item recently finished at auction. Mid-19th C would be my guess on age. An unusual pairing. . Attached Images

Yesterday, 10:22 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,442	Kinda like these French 'Apache' revolvers. Attached Images

Yesterday, 04:47 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,442	Very interesting Ian!! The innovation of Indian armorers is truly fascinating and in the 19th century when the durbars of the Raj became great events that became akin to todays 'gun shows' on the periphery...these guys always tried to impress . The dual gun actions are percussion, suggesting probably 1840s, but unusual seeing them paired. Flintlock gun actions are well known on hunting swords of 18th century, and the gun production innovations did not escape armorers trying to impress the dignitaries in the princely states. "Firearms Curiosa", Lewis Winant, 1955, is a good read pertaining to these kinds of unusual weapons. Thanks for sharing this Ian.....I hope my response doesnt 'kill the thread'.

Yesterday, 07:47 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,874	Curious about the rough finish. Also the pracitcality. I wonder if is a 19th centruy curio so to speak.

Yesterday, 08:04 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,442	Good point Tim. This looks pretty rough, and seems like most examples are pretty high end, more for the courts and officials. Apparently Maharaja Raja Ram Singh (1811-1889) was a big fan of combination weapons and BUNDI in Rajasthan a key area for these kinds of weapons. "Splendors of the Subcontinent: A Princes Tour of India 1875-76" K. Meghani is a good reference for anyone caring to pursue further.

Yesterday, 08:26 PM	#5
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 418	Here's a Youtube that discusses this type of weapon in detail. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FJ_RdKYd5A Ed

Yesterday, 08:47 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,874	Although better made I still have doubts this is really a weapon. Just think of carriage pistols. Also how fine real Indian metalwork can be.

Today, 12:09 AM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,449	Thanks for the responses guys. I too wonder about the practicality of this item as a weapon. The relatively short blade with only a few inches protruding beyond the pistol muzzles would have had limited penetration for these stabbing weapons. Screw-on barrels and breech loading does not make them very practical pistols either if you needed to reload. Jim, thanks for the references. Those durbars must have been impressive shows, displaying the manufacturing skills of the various princely states to each other and their subjects.

Today, 03:36 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,442	I dont know a lot on guns Ian, but those percussion hammers, like the whole setup look pretty weak. When I see these combination weapons I often wonder if they were used, or even intended to be used. Those durbars from what I have understood were pretty big events bringing together figures and people from many princely states and administrative regions for official business and diplomatic interactions. This attracted many vendors and artisans creating a sort of swap meet type exchange. I think a lot of the weapons that have come into collecting communities had their origins in these......much like the weapons seen in Egerton (1885).