Fake blades from India and China

mariusgmioc · 16th April 2016, 11:05 PM

I have decided to open this thread as I was about to bid in a fairly good reputation auction for what I am pretty sure is a fake Indian Tulwar.

So I thought maybe it is good for us to exchange some tips and ideas to avoid falling for fakes.

So for the Indian Tulwar what are the signs to look for?!

1. A hilt with intact or excellent condition koftgari as koftgari is quite sensitive and cannot withstand centuries without leaving traces. However, one can make a new hilt and the wear off some of the koftgary to give it an antiquated look.

2. Indian Tulwars were used for cutting, thus they had to be kept sharp. However, in use they got nicks and lost the cutting edge, so they had to be resharpened. By resharpening, the blade became narrower, so one can easily notice the narrowing immediately after the ricasso. However, a new blade can be deliberately ground so that displays the narrowing like it was resharpened many times. And there can be of course old, genuine blades that didn't see much use and weren't resharpened.

3. A dark grayish blade, that does not display the characteristic wootz watering. The dark, grayish look is a sign the blade was etched. But there is absolutely no point to etch a blade that is not wootz, unless one wants to make it look like wootz and deceive less inquisitive customers.

4. A blade coming from India, as India has very strong laws against the export of antiques, and the violators are risking very harsh punishments. Yet, I bought genuine wootz blades directly from India, but I believe they were rather an exception than the rule.

Ian · 17th April 2016, 12:49 AM

Marius:

I think we need to be careful about what we call a "fake." This implies that a person is deliberately trying to pass something off as being older/more valuable than it really is. However, there are many Indian arms that are offered for sale that are of obviously recent manufacture and are not being touted as antiques. These could become fakes if they were presented as something they are not.

I think what you are trying to describe are the signs of recent manufacture versus the appearance of an item made more than a hundred years ago. There are general clues, of course, and perhaps some that are specific to tulwars that you are using as an example.

To distinguish new from old one needs to look at the materials used and how the item was made.

Does it include materials that were not around a hundred years ago?

Has it been made with technologies that were not invented at that time or were not widely available?

Is the artistic style of decoration correct? Are inscriptions consistent with older manufacture and linguistic styles?

Is there a reliable provenance or any photographic evidence to support the age of the item?

And so on. You have also raised the issue of someone deliberately creating an object to appear older than it is. This is an important source of uncertainty in dating older or not so old objects. Even the experts can be fooled. However, there is really no substitute for knowledge and experience--handling many of the items in question that have been reliably provenanced is an excellent way to learn. But that type of experience falls to very few of us. So we have forums like this instead, where a little knowledge here and a little there can amount to quite a lot of expertise. I have found the search function of this site can reveal a lot of important information posted by people who know far more than I do.

Ian.

ariel · 17th April 2016, 01:57 AM

Well, as we all know, there are literally hundreds and thousands of arms and armor pieces coming from India to e-bay, and from there being re-sold all over.

There are 3 major groups: rusty and often broken tulwar handles and daggers of unknown purpose; combination pieces, mainly old and rusty handle ( see above) and newly-made blade; and flagrantly new and pretentiously lavish objects that are presented as "old", "antique", "mughal" etc.

Yes, India just like China bans exportation of antiques. But being a democratic country, Indian laws and punishments are likely to be not as draconian as in China. Thus, it must be easier and safer for them to mail real antiques of lesser or absent historical value.

As to the "lavish" ones, one needs to remember that what seems to be lavish to us, is likely to be dirt cheap to manufacture in India due to their low labor costs. Also, there are plenty of highly qualified masters capable of doing really good job for very little money. And, finally, asking prices are rising like crazy: what was offered for $10 several years ago, nowadays is offered for hundreds and thousands. Although many items can be bought with an offer not exceeding 10-20% of the listing price, giving a good idea of their intended profit margin.

In my experience, 99.999% of really good and old stuff comes from Europe/USA ( likely originally also from Europe) as remnants of the colonial era. IMHO, buying antique weapons from India is foolish: one will end either with a piece of junk of with a newly-made souvenir.

ausjulius · 17th April 2016, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, as we all know, there are literally hundreds and thousands of arms and armor pieces coming from India to e-bay, and from there being re-sold all over.

There are 3 major groups: rusty and often broken tulwar handles and daggers of unknown purpose; combination pieces, mainly old and rusty handle ( see above) and newly-made blade; and flagrantly new and pretentiously lavish objects that are presented as "old", "antique", "mughal" etc.

Yes, India just like China bans exportation of antiques. But being a democratic country, Indian laws and punishments are likely to be not as draconian as in China. Thus, it must be easier and safer for them to mail real antiques of lesser or absent historical value.

As to the "lavish" ones, one needs to remember that what seems to be lavish to us, is likely to be dirt cheap to manufacture in India due to their low labor costs. Also, there are plenty of highly qualified masters capable of doing really good job for very little money. And, finally, asking prices are rising like crazy: what was offered for $10 several years ago, nowadays is offered for hundreds and thousands. Although many items can be bought with an offer not exceeding 10-20% of the listing price, giving a good idea of their intended profit margin.

In my experience, 99.999% of really good and old stuff comes from Europe/USA ( likely originally also from Europe) as remnants of the colonial era. IMHO, buying antique weapons from India is foolish: one will end either with a piece of junk of with a newly-made souvenir.

china .. you can pretty much export at will out of the country.. but there is little there. chinese mostly under the manchus were not permitted side arms..
mostly its ethic minority stuff or very crude all the good stuff was destroyed or in museums and government collections.. or the very old like bronze stuff.. risky to buy and no really knowledgeable collectors in china so no very good references..
ethnic minority items are the way to go.. sending them is easy . put in package and send.. no problems..but the areas where these are available are very isolated and in big chinese cities prices are.. humorous..

moving from autonomous zones where there is a large military presence into Chinese areas can result in seizure though, as things like knives swords ect in china are actually technically illegal and even their production needs permits. !!! crazy but its really ever enforce to outsiders or even locals. ..

india its the worst for exporting antique stuff. you never know if its going to get blocked.. if it looks nice there is a good chance it might. it is rought like the stuff on ebay mostly ok.

where as china dosnt care what people export.. drugs.. weapons.. organs.. anything you want.. disruption is bad for business. .. they dont care.

in india the customs people see it as a profitable business to check everything..

mariusgmioc · 17th April 2016, 09:49 AM

Talking about antique Chinese blades coming from China

Why would a Chinese dealer try to sell a genuine antique Chinese blade on eBay, to a Western buyer, thus violating the Chinese law and risking very harsh punishment, when he can get a much higher price in China from one of the thousands of newly rich Chinese?!

PS: Prices for genuine Chinese antiques have gone over the roof in recent years precisely because of this new category of very rich Chinese collectors.

PPS: When I went to Japan, I was considering buying some nice pieces of Japanese antique Satsuma, Kutani and Imari pottery, only to find out that in Japan they are priced about 5 to 10 times more than in Europe or the US.

josh stout · 18th April 2016, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Talking about antique Chinese blades coming from China

Why would a Chinese dealer try to sell a genuine antique Chinese blade on eBay, to a Western buyer, thus violating the Chinese law and risking very harsh punishment, when he can get a much higher price in China from one of the thousands of newly rich Chinese?!

PS: Prices for genuine Chinese antiques have gone over the roof in recent years precisely because of this new category of very rich Chinese collectors.

PPS: When I went to Japan, I was considering buying some nice pieces of Japanese antique Satsuma, Kutani and Imari pottery, only to find out that in Japan they are priced about 5 to 10 times more than in Europe or the US.

The business can be very strange. There was a time in the early 2000s when I bought a few antiques from China and then sold them back at twice the price. At the time I assumed that the price increase was due to to the greater likelihood of genuine items being from America as opposed to those found in China. There are circles of very knowledgeable Chinese collectors who know each other's items, and sell them at more reasonable prices to each other. If they catch an American posting a picture, they will be angry at whoever sold it. Since 2008 it has been illegal for Americans to import Chinese antiques, not just for the Chinese to export them.

The truly high quality stuff has been essentially locked up since the 90s. I had a fun decade hunting village militia items made from quality steel, but even those are now reproductions, in relic condition and overpriced. Sometimes you will see something that is all three.

ariel · 18th April 2016, 05:27 PM

I really enjoy learning different perspectives.
Thank you, guys!

16th April 2016, 11:05 PM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Fake blades from India and China I have decided to open this thread as I was about to bid in a fairly good reputation auction for what I am pretty sure is a fake Indian Tulwar. So I thought maybe it is good for us to exchange some tips and ideas to avoid falling for fakes. So for the Indian Tulwar what are the signs to look for?! 1. A hilt with intact or excellent condition koftgari as koftgari is quite sensitive and cannot withstand centuries without leaving traces. However, one can make a new hilt and the wear off some of the koftgary to give it an antiquated look. 2. Indian Tulwars were used for cutting, thus they had to be kept sharp. However, in use they got nicks and lost the cutting edge, so they had to be resharpened. By resharpening, the blade became narrower, so one can easily notice the narrowing immediately after the ricasso. However, a new blade can be deliberately ground so that displays the narrowing like it was resharpened many times. And there can be of course old, genuine blades that didn't see much use and weren't resharpened. 3. A dark grayish blade, that does not display the characteristic wootz watering. The dark, grayish look is a sign the blade was etched. But there is absolutely no point to etch a blade that is not wootz, unless one wants to make it look like wootz and deceive less inquisitive customers. 4. A blade coming from India, as India has very strong laws against the export of antiques, and the violators are risking very harsh punishments. Yet, I bought genuine wootz blades directly from India, but I believe they were rather an exception than the rule.

18th April 2016, 05:27 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I really enjoy learning different perspectives. Thank you, guys! Last edited by ariel; 19th April 2016 at 02:26 AM.

17th April 2016, 12:49 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,336	Marius: I think we need to be careful about what we call a "fake." This implies that a person is deliberately trying to pass something off as being older/more valuable than it really is. However, there are many Indian arms that are offered for sale that are of obviously recent manufacture and are not being touted as antiques. These could become fakes if they were presented as something they are not. I think what you are trying to describe are the signs of recent manufacture versus the appearance of an item made more than a hundred years ago. There are general clues, of course, and perhaps some that are specific to tulwars that you are using as an example. To distinguish new from old one needs to look at the materials used and how the item was made. Does it include materials that were not around a hundred years ago? Has it been made with technologies that were not invented at that time or were not widely available? Is the artistic style of decoration correct? Are inscriptions consistent with older manufacture and linguistic styles? Is there a reliable provenance or any photographic evidence to support the age of the item? And so on. You have also raised the issue of someone deliberately creating an object to appear older than it is. This is an important source of uncertainty in dating older or not so old objects. Even the experts can be fooled. However, there is really no substitute for knowledge and experience--handling many of the items in question that have been reliably provenanced is an excellent way to learn. But that type of experience falls to very few of us. So we have forums like this instead, where a little knowledge here and a little there can amount to quite a lot of expertise. I have found the search function of this site can reveal a lot of important information posted by people who know far more than I do. Ian.

17th April 2016, 01:57 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, as we all know, there are literally hundreds and thousands of arms and armor pieces coming from India to e-bay, and from there being re-sold all over. There are 3 major groups: rusty and often broken tulwar handles and daggers of unknown purpose; combination pieces, mainly old and rusty handle ( see above) and newly-made blade; and flagrantly new and pretentiously lavish objects that are presented as "old", "antique", "mughal" etc. Yes, India just like China bans exportation of antiques. But being a democratic country, Indian laws and punishments are likely to be not as draconian as in China. Thus, it must be easier and safer for them to mail real antiques of lesser or absent historical value. As to the "lavish" ones, one needs to remember that what seems to be lavish to us, is likely to be dirt cheap to manufacture in India due to their low labor costs. Also, there are plenty of highly qualified masters capable of doing really good job for very little money. And, finally, asking prices are rising like crazy: what was offered for $10 several years ago, nowadays is offered for hundreds and thousands. Although many items can be bought with an offer not exceeding 10-20% of the listing price, giving a good idea of their intended profit margin. In my experience, 99.999% of really good and old stuff comes from Europe/USA ( likely originally also from Europe) as remnants of the colonial era. IMHO, buying antique weapons from India is foolish: one will end either with a piece of junk of with a newly-made souvenir.

17th April 2016, 09:49 AM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Talking about antique Chinese blades coming from China Why would a Chinese dealer try to sell a genuine antique Chinese blade on eBay, to a Western buyer, thus violating the Chinese law and risking very harsh punishment, when he can get a much higher price in China from one of the thousands of newly rich Chinese?! PS: Prices for genuine Chinese antiques have gone over the roof in recent years precisely because of this new category of very rich Chinese collectors. PPS: When I went to Japan, I was considering buying some nice pieces of Japanese antique Satsuma, Kutani and Imari pottery, only to find out that in Japan they are priced about 5 to 10 times more than in Europe or the US.