Dagger: Russian or ...what???

ariel · 8th November 2010, 11:36 PM

Folks,
Just wanted to show you a dagger. Pics are lousy, because there are two only such daggers in existence: one private, another in State Historical Museum in Moscow. The latter has a golden inscription on the spine that it belonged to some russian noble, beginning of the 16-th century. It is narrow, ~20 " long, the edge is on the concave side, and there is a T-spine.
There are also 2 or 3 illustrations of that dagger in the literature showing the arms of Russian nobles.
The origin is complete mystery. I found only one +/- similar one, in the Furussiya book where it was described as ghaznavid, 11-12 cen.
Do you have any ideas where it could have come from, its predecessors ( if any) or anything else.
Cannot put better pics, sorry. Exercise your imagination:-)

TVV · 9th November 2010, 09:36 PM

I have almost nothing to add, except random thoughts, but this is an interesting thread.

The scabbard style looks Central Asian, with the hilt going in almost all the way. The Ghaznavids were there in the 11-12th century, but this was also the time that their Empire was brought down by the Seljuks. The Ghaznavid hypothesis is intriguing due to the potential connection to the mysterious Qalatchoore. If the form made its way to Russia, it could have only been through the Mongols, or Volga Bulgaria's and the Cumans'trade ties the Muslim World, and therefore one would expect to discover something similar within Golden Horde finds.

I do not have the Furussiya book, and would be interested in seeing a quick scan of the Ghaznavid weapon.

Regards,
Teodor

ariel · 9th November 2010, 11:54 PM

You are right, I should have done it earlier. Here it is.

8th November 2010, 11:36 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Dagger: Russian or ...what??? Folks, Just wanted to show you a dagger. Pics are lousy, because there are two only such daggers in existence: one private, another in State Historical Museum in Moscow. The latter has a golden inscription on the spine that it belonged to some russian noble, beginning of the 16-th century. It is narrow, ~20 " long, the edge is on the concave side, and there is a T-spine. There are also 2 or 3 illustrations of that dagger in the literature showing the arms of Russian nobles. The origin is complete mystery. I found only one +/- similar one, in the Furussiya book where it was described as ghaznavid, 11-12 cen. Do you have any ideas where it could have come from, its predecessors ( if any) or anything else. Cannot put better pics, sorry. Exercise your imagination:-) Attached Images

9th November 2010, 11:54 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	You are right, I should have done it earlier. Here it is. Attached Images

9th November 2010, 09:36 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,659	I have almost nothing to add, except random thoughts, but this is an interesting thread. The scabbard style looks Central Asian, with the hilt going in almost all the way. The Ghaznavids were there in the 11-12th century, but this was also the time that their Empire was brought down by the Seljuks. The Ghaznavid hypothesis is intriguing due to the potential connection to the mysterious Qalatchoore. If the form made its way to Russia, it could have only been through the Mongols, or Volga Bulgaria's and the Cumans'trade ties the Muslim World, and therefore one would expect to discover something similar within Golden Horde finds. I do not have the Furussiya book, and would be interested in seeing a quick scan of the Ghaznavid weapon. Regards, Teodor