my new old katar!

KuKulzA28 · 24th June 2009, 01:31 AM

Today I received the Katar I bought. I think I got what I paid for... seems like a simple "armory" type so I doubt wootz will suddenly appear under the rust... To my untrained eye it looks like it is one solid piece of metal and has a swollen armor-piercing tip. It fits my hand, though just a little bit tight. It's rusty, but I like the overall shape, and it seems strong. There is a curious hole at the base of the blade. Two fullers(?) can be seen on each side.

I'm wondering...

What can you guys tell me about this katar?
Is there anything remarkable about it?
Would it be a good idea to "restore it" or leave it rusty?

Perhaps if I decide it should be "restored" I'd ask a master to add koftgari after it's cleaned... making a prince out of a pauper... but that would be too hasty, I'd like to learn more about this guy first. It could possibly be a well-made fake antique or just a rusty old "commoner" piece, but I'm pretty excited nonetheless... one of the first "antiques" I've ever had.

David · 24th June 2009, 03:16 AM

Would it be a good idea to "restore it" or leave it rusty?[/QUOTE]
I think these are 2 different questions. I personally don't think it is ever a good idea to leave something rusty as the rust will just continue to eat away at the iron. Restoration usually involves a bit more than mere rust removal though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Perhaps if I decide it should be "restored" I'd ask a master to add koftgari after it's cleaned... making a prince out of a pauper... but that would be too hasty, I'd like to learn more about this guy first. It could possibly be a well-made fake antique or just a rusty old "commoner" piece, but I'm pretty excited nonetheless... one of the first "antiques" I've ever had.

Well i doubt it's a fake. There's not much of a mark up to be made making a fake katar of this type. It's just not rare enough to command the money a forger would need to make it worth his while.
Personally i would not add koftgari to a piece that never had any. Seems somehow dishonest to the katar.

Jim McDougall · 24th June 2009, 04:46 AM

Nice katar, and of well represented form well known in northern regions of Indian from the northwest frontier to Punjab and New Delhi, but most likely Rajasthan, and 19th century style. As you have observed, it is more of an arsenal type weapon and wootz is unlikely.

These weapons when well patinated, should be treated with respect and any active rust stabilized, I am against removing patina and personally detest the often seen overcleaning seen too often on well aged old weapons. The quickest way to destroy the integrity of a weapon is to overclean it, especially to a garish polish (my opinion).

These weapons are imbued with history, and should not be overcleaned or embellished. Restoration should be limited to structural refurbishing as required and kept conservative. It seems like the rust on this katar is relatively superficial, just stabilize with some gun oil or light oil.

Congratulations Kukulz, nice example, and thank you for sharing it

All the best,
Jim

sandeepsingh · 24th June 2009, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Would it be a good idea to "restore it" or leave it rusty?
I think these are 2 different questions. I personally don't think it is ever a good idea to leave something rusty as the rust will just continue to eat away at the iron. Restoration usually involves a bit more than mere rust removal though.

Well i doubt it's a fake. There's not much of a mark up to be made making a fake katar of this type. It's just not rare enough to command the money a forger would need to make it worth his while.
Personally i would not add koftgari to a piece that never had any. Seems somehow dishonest to the katar.

I don't think so its fake katar

, I think Kukulz you should cleaned the katar it might have wootz blade

KuKulzA28 · 24th June 2009, 03:56 PM

Thanks for the observations and advice guys!

I'll get to work to clean this blade of its rust. I know it doesn't have koftgari and probably not a wootz blade, and wasn't owned by Shivaji or Guru Amar Das... but I like it. It's simplicity is elegant and it's elegance is simple... but rusty.

Just curious, what type of rust remover would you guys suggest?
I have WD40, but I don't know if that would be appropriate.

Again, thanks.

Jim McDougall · 24th June 2009, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Thanks for the observations and advice guys!

I'll get to work to clean this blade of its rust. I know it doesn't have koftgari and probably not a wootz blade, and wasn't owned by Shivaji or Guru Amar Das... but I like it. It's simplicity is elegant and it's elegance is simple... but rusty.

Just curious, what type of rust remover would you guys suggest?
I have WD40, but I don't know if that would be appropriate.

Again, thanks.

WD-40 is what I always used on weapons, its mild and cleans without removing patination, the gun oil stays on as protective against future active rust.

KuKulzA28 · 24th June 2009, 08:32 PM

Will do!

Rick · 24th June 2009, 08:40 PM

Soak the entire piece in pineapple juice ... seriously !
Scrub with a non abrasive brush every day; let soak until rust is gone .

DO NOT attempt to grind off the rust .

First rule:
Do no harm .

KuKulzA28 · 24th June 2009, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Soak the entire piece in pineapple juice ... seriously !
Scrub with a non abrasive brush every day; let soak until rust is gone .

DO NOT attempt to grind off the rust .

First rule:
Do no harm .

Pineapple juice? Are you serious?

So a small tub of pineapple juice, soak it entirely, and scrub a bit everyday, and keep it soaked in between until it's all gone... what do I do with the stickiness of the juice?

What's the advantage of pineapple over WD40? Gentler on the metal?

Cause I have WD-40, but pineapple.. I'll have to go buy one... which wouldn't be a bad thing except I'd have to squeeze out the juice and eat dried pineapple... OR buy pineapple juice (presumably with no additives?).

ward · 24th June 2009, 10:52 PM

It is a acid any similar acid will do. look in the kitchen any citrus will do the same thing. lemon,lime, kiwi, etc

Sajen · 24th June 2009, 11:51 PM

I use lemon acid and a brass scrubber carefully. Pineapple is more soft.
sajen

KuKulzA28 · 25th June 2009, 02:27 AM

I'll think it over, and whichever solution I use...
I'll definitely proceed with care and caution.

I'll post photo up when it is clean of the rust.

ward · 25th June 2009, 03:13 AM

This is pretty basic chemistry. The strength of the acid and the concentrate of it are what make the difference. The same acids that are taking off the rust can be used to etch just takes a while. Other ones to play with are vinegar,wostershire sauce,ketchup,urine. As long as the mix stays away from oxygen it will work. Another thing that is a good idea after a acid wash is done is to soak the metal in a oil. Olive oil is a good one to let it soak in for a few weeks and then clean it and wax it.

24th June 2009, 01:31 AM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	my new old katar! Today I received the Katar I bought. I think I got what I paid for... seems like a simple "armory" type so I doubt wootz will suddenly appear under the rust... To my untrained eye it looks like it is one solid piece of metal and has a swollen armor-piercing tip. It fits my hand, though just a little bit tight. It's rusty, but I like the overall shape, and it seems strong. There is a curious hole at the base of the blade. Two fullers(?) can be seen on each side. I'm wondering... What can you guys tell me about this katar? Is there anything remarkable about it? Would it be a good idea to "restore it" or leave it rusty? Perhaps if I decide it should be "restored" I'd ask a master to add koftgari after it's cleaned... making a prince out of a pauper... but that would be too hasty, I'd like to learn more about this guy first. It could possibly be a well-made fake antique or just a rusty old "commoner" piece, but I'm pretty excited nonetheless... one of the first "antiques" I've ever had. Attached Images

24th June 2009, 04:46 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,100	Nice katar, and of well represented form well known in northern regions of Indian from the northwest frontier to Punjab and New Delhi, but most likely Rajasthan, and 19th century style. As you have observed, it is more of an arsenal type weapon and wootz is unlikely. These weapons when well patinated, should be treated with respect and any active rust stabilized, I am against removing patina and personally detest the often seen overcleaning seen too often on well aged old weapons. The quickest way to destroy the integrity of a weapon is to overclean it, especially to a garish polish (my opinion). These weapons are imbued with history, and should not be overcleaned or embellished. Restoration should be limited to structural refurbishing as required and kept conservative. It seems like the rust on this katar is relatively superficial, just stabilize with some gun oil or light oil. Congratulations Kukulz, nice example, and thank you for sharing it All the best, Jim

24th June 2009, 03:56 PM	#5
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Thanks for the observations and advice guys! I'll get to work to clean this blade of its rust. I know it doesn't have koftgari and probably not a wootz blade, and wasn't owned by Shivaji or Guru Amar Das... but I like it. It's simplicity is elegant and it's elegance is simple... but rusty. Just curious, what type of rust remover would you guys suggest? I have WD40, but I don't know if that would be appropriate. Again, thanks.

24th June 2009, 08:32 PM	#7
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Will do!

24th June 2009, 08:40 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,325	Soak the entire piece in pineapple juice ... seriously ! Scrub with a non abrasive brush every day; let soak until rust is gone . DO NOT attempt to grind off the rust . First rule: Do no harm .

24th June 2009, 10:52 PM	#10
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	It is a acid any similar acid will do. look in the kitchen any citrus will do the same thing. lemon,lime, kiwi, etc

24th June 2009, 11:51 PM	#11
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,126	I use lemon acid and a brass scrubber carefully. Pineapple is more soft. sajen

25th June 2009, 02:27 AM	#12
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	I'll think it over, and whichever solution I use... I'll definitely proceed with care and caution. I'll post photo up when it is clean of the rust.

25th June 2009, 03:13 AM	#13
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	This is pretty basic chemistry. The strength of the acid and the concentrate of it are what make the difference. The same acids that are taking off the rust can be used to etch just takes a while. Other ones to play with are vinegar,wostershire sauce,ketchup,urine. As long as the mix stays away from oxygen it will work. Another thing that is a good idea after a acid wash is done is to soak the metal in a oil. Olive oil is a good one to let it soak in for a few weeks and then clean it and wax it.