Is this spearhead or bottom end ?

Martin Lubojacky · 22nd October 2017, 04:46 PM

Heavy, cca 60 cms long, comming probably from Ethiopia ...

Helleri · 22nd October 2017, 05:06 PM

Not a spear head for sure. It's a little long to be a butt cap/counter balance. Likely some sort of ahlspiess (missing a disc guard) or javelin?

kronckew · 22nd October 2017, 06:42 PM

some maasi ground spikes are quite long/heavy tho. so are the blades
the spike on this one of mine is 57cm. the greek phalanx used a spear with a 'saroter' butt spike that counterbalanced the point & was a secondary weapon in itself, so is the maasi version, they practice throwing their spears butt end first to protect the blade end from damage or dulling. the longer the spear/pike/lance, the longer the butt spike.

Martin Lubojacky · 22nd October 2017, 07:46 PM

Thank you Kronckew. I think it is too heavy for javelin (61 cms, inner diameter of the socket 2.5 cms).... In Africa I would not speak about ahlspiess with disc guard.... My idea is either head from armour piercing lance or bottom part from heavy spear or lance - as you wrote, this spike bottom part can be used as a weapon itself. But I think it is not Masai. It may come to Ethiopia from its western neighbours .... I (maybe wrongly) can feel some "west Sudanese" influence (like ball section e.g.).... would appreciate any pictures with something like this - from Africa.

kronckew · 22nd October 2017, 08:36 PM

i suspect a long lance butt piece myself, it's not maasi, just showed mine as an example. there are pics here somewhere of long lances, tho i didn't find one in my cursory search. the other members may recall one better. sudan/no. africa seems likely.

Helleri · 22nd October 2017, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky

Thank you Kronckew. I think it is too heavy for javelin (61 cms, inner diameter of the socket 2.5 cms).... In Africa I would not speak about ahlspiess with disc guard.... My idea is either head from armour piercing lance or bottom part from heavy spear or lance - as you wrote, this spike bottom part can be used as a weapon itself. But I think it is not Masai. It may come to Ethiopia from its western neighbours .... I (maybe wrongly) can feel some "west Sudanese" influence (like ball section e.g.).... would appreciate any pictures with something like this - from Africa.

Yeah I'm just spit-balling. Part of which is the consideration that it may not be from Africa originally. Even if shipped to someone from there or bought by someone while over that way. It doesn't necessarily mean it was made there. Warfare, occupation, trade. All these things can find weapons and armour ending up far and away from where they were originally made. Seems good to not get locked into the idea that it must come from somewhere in or immediately adjacent to Africa.

Martin Lubojacky · 22nd October 2017, 10:46 PM

Thank you helleri

shayde78 · 23rd October 2017, 12:52 AM

Can you show an angle that shows the socket hole, including the seam? Also, where the socket meets the next adjacent section...the patina looks different between the socket and the rest of the piece. Something about this looks architectural, but a proper socket would challenge this thought.
Thanks!

Martin Lubojacky · 23rd October 2017, 08:54 AM

Shayde, enclosed are requestet pictures.

shayde78 · 25th October 2017, 02:09 AM

Ah...thank you!
Not architectural, so I offer that it is the butt end of an East African spear. A nicer form than most.

kronckew · 25th October 2017, 08:30 AM

see also tim's post http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...19&postcount=5

'east african' covers my initial offering of a simpler maasi lion spear butt spike. the maasi actually did not make their own, their lion spears and samburu spears were made by other tribes and sold to many others in east africa as well, so 'east africa' description fits better than pinning it down to a specific tribe.

just to complexicate things, have a look at

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16815&

and the links there as well.

22nd October 2017, 04:46 PM	#1
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Is this spearhead or bottom end ? Heavy, cca 60 cms long, comming probably from Ethiopia ... Attached Images

22nd October 2017, 06:42 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,178	some maasi ground spikes are quite long/heavy tho. so are the blades the spike on this one of mine is 57cm. the greek phalanx used a spear with a 'saroter' butt spike that counterbalanced the point & was a secondary weapon in itself, so is the maasi version, they practice throwing their spears butt end first to protect the blade end from damage or dulling. the longer the spear/pike/lance, the longer the butt spike. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 22nd October 2017 at 07:04 PM.

23rd October 2017, 08:54 AM	#9
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Shayde, enclosed are requestet pictures. Attached Images

22nd October 2017, 05:06 PM	#2
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	Not a spear head for sure. It's a little long to be a butt cap/counter balance. Likely some sort of ahlspiess (missing a disc guard) or javelin?

22nd October 2017, 07:46 PM	#4
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Thank you Kronckew. I think it is too heavy for javelin (61 cms, inner diameter of the socket 2.5 cms).... In Africa I would not speak about ahlspiess with disc guard.... My idea is either head from armour piercing lance or bottom part from heavy spear or lance - as you wrote, this spike bottom part can be used as a weapon itself. But I think it is not Masai. It may come to Ethiopia from its western neighbours .... I (maybe wrongly) can feel some "west Sudanese" influence (like ball section e.g.).... would appreciate any pictures with something like this - from Africa.

22nd October 2017, 08:36 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,178	i suspect a long lance butt piece myself, it's not maasi, just showed mine as an example. there are pics here somewhere of long lances, tho i didn't find one in my cursory search. the other members may recall one better. sudan/no. africa seems likely.

22nd October 2017, 10:46 PM	#7
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Thank you helleri

23rd October 2017, 12:52 AM	#8
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Can you show an angle that shows the socket hole, including the seam? Also, where the socket meets the next adjacent section...the patina looks different between the socket and the rest of the piece. Something about this looks architectural, but a proper socket would challenge this thought. Thanks!

25th October 2017, 02:09 AM	#10
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Ah...thank you! Not architectural, so I offer that it is the butt end of an East African spear. A nicer form than most.

25th October 2017, 08:30 AM	#11
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,178	see also tim's post http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...19&postcount=5 'east african' covers my initial offering of a simpler maasi lion spear butt spike. the maasi actually did not make their own, their lion spears and samburu spears were made by other tribes and sold to many others in east africa as well, so 'east africa' description fits better than pinning it down to a specific tribe. just to complexicate things, have a look at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16815& and the links there as well.