17th March 2015, 12:41 PM | #1 |
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Ottoman or Balkan carnelian belts.
I am looking for any information on these large impressive carnelian belts. Historically they have a couple of different story lines, they have been shown in 1800s orientalist paintings as being worn by harem guards in Khedival Egypt and also a very similar belt is shown being worn by a woman in a painting from the same time period.
One Polish museum has an example being worn with a mail shirt, another Balkan museum display shows one being worn as a womans assessory. There is a photograph from Albania showing a woman wearing one and a couple of other photos of very similar but slightly different belts being worn by women. Arms dealers have sold them as being a sword belt based on the paintings and the Polish museum display while some antique jewelry dealers have sold them as being a womans belt. Any additional information would be appreciated. |
17th March 2015, 04:56 PM | #2 |
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VERY INTERESTING AND ATTRACTIVE BELTS. I HAVE SEEN SOME OF THESE PICTURES BUT ALWAYS IGNORED THE BELTS WHILE LOOKING AT THE WEAPONS. IT SHOULD BE POSSIBLE FOR AN EXPERT IN STONE TO FIND THE REGION WHERE THE CARNELIAN WAS FOUND. THIS AGATE IS FOUND ALL OVER THE WORLD BUT THERE ARE REGIONAL VARIATIONS. THE OTHER CLUES WOULD BE AS TO WHERE THE STONES WERE WORKED AND THE METAL AND LEATHER WORK DONE. THE BELT WOULD BE HEAVY AND COULD EVEN OFFER SOME PROTECTION TO THE BELLY. CARNELIAN HAS BEEN POPULAR WORLD WIDE FOR A VERY LONG TIME. IT MAY BE BECAUSE OF THE COLOR AND BEAUTY OF THE STONE OR THERE MAY BE SOME SPECIAL POWERS OR BELIEFS ASSOCIATED WITH THE STONE.
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17th March 2015, 11:01 PM | #3 |
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The problem is that carnelian was semi-precious and worn all over the Ottoman Empire. I believe it was to ward off evil.
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18th March 2015, 02:39 PM | #4 | ||
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So were did these carnelians originate? I did find this clue. Here is a paragraph from "Through Bosnia and the Herzegovina on foot during the insurrection, August and September 1875 : with an historical review of Bosnia, and a glimpse at the Croats, Slavonians, and the ancient republic of Ragusa" (1877) by Arthur John Evans. While looking for the origin of vast quanities of antique gem stones that were found in Epidaurus and throughout Illyria (the Balkans) he made this discovery. Quote:
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20th March 2015, 09:04 AM | #5 |
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Male or female belt - it is really a difficult question, because there is evidence of being worn both by men and women. In ethnic jewellery world a piece is normally either male or female...
There was a great and long discussion on the subject with a lot of facts on the ethnic jewellery forum: http://ethnicjewels.ning.com/photo/t...erthegrtmuseum Another one: http://ethnicjewels.ning.com/photo/a...known-in-egypt Yet another: http://ethnicjewels.ning.com/photo/p...context=latest The old picture of Albanians in Montenegro is also interesting: |
23rd March 2015, 10:29 AM | #6 | |
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http://ethnicjewels.ning.com/photo/b...=msg_com_photo I agree that it is unusual for a jewelry item to be worn by both a man and woman, also from two different cultures. It seems that these belts may have originated in the area of Albania, possibly as a womans belt, or at least they may have actually been worn by women in some point in time. What is interesting is that the ruler of Egypt during the 1800s was an Ottoman soldier from Albania. Several Orientalist painters show Egyptian men wearing this type of belt. It is not hard to imagine an Albanian soldier or his wife selling an unused belt to an Ottoman while stationed in Egypt. There is a carnelian belt that supposedly is in the Coptic Museum, Cairo Egypt, so somehow at least one of these belts ended up in Egypt, unfortunately there is no discription to go with the picture. I just posted this here on the off chance that a forum member might have some additional information on the subject. Last edited by estcrh; 23rd March 2015 at 10:40 AM. |
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8th October 2015, 10:04 AM | #7 |
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10th October 2015, 06:08 PM | #8 |
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These belts are Balkan, and were produced primarily during the mid-19th century. They were originally intended as a woman's accoutrement.
They tend to be of very uniform workmanship, indicating they were produced in a particular center or centers. The mounts are brass or bronze and are cast, pierced, and occasionally simply engraved; these are among the least expensive of materials and techniques for producing jewelry. Carnelians were sold in strands of beads from Bohemia to Beijing, and were likewise among the most economical choices for self-adornment. Grinding and polishing them to shape (flat, in this case) is also a relatively simple procedure. By comparison with other Balkan jewelry and accoutrements, their level of crafting implies that such belts were made to allow members of a median social strata to achieve a required level of status. Regarding Orientalist paintings as reference materials: though there are exceptions, almost none of the Orientalists painted from life. While the details of individual weapons and other objects can be very useful, it would be wise to approach the context cautiously. Race, ethnicity, architecture, locale, costume and the particular juxtaposition of a group of arms in a given painting are almost entirely unreliable, since they were usually composed by the artist in order to achieve an aesthetic, rather than historical, sensibility. Last edited by Oliver Pinchot; 10th October 2015 at 06:21 PM. |
11th October 2015, 01:22 PM | #9 | |
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I have a Pinterest page with all 12 painting by the 5 artists which show these belts, anyone can check the histories of the individual painters and see if they did travel to the Middle East or not. I have included all of the known photos of women wearing these belts as well. While it is known that these were a womens belt in the Balkans, the question is whether a man was ever seen wearing one of these carnelian belts in Khedival Egypt or did one of the Orientalist painters suddenly just start painting a man wearing one of these belts for no reason other than he liked the belt. https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...-and-european/ |
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11th October 2015, 01:26 PM | #10 | |
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12th October 2017, 10:55 AM | #11 |
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Just to complement the previous discussion, we have a lot of examples of these belts used by men...
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12th October 2017, 11:26 AM | #12 | |
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then maybe these belts are Ottoman! Do you know any example from Turkey? Best, Kubur |
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20th October 2017, 10:10 PM | #13 |
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There are many examples of Eastern European photographs showing women also wearing carnelian belts (jakicar). SEE https://www.pinterest.co.uk/worldant...opean/?lp=true
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22nd October 2017, 08:39 AM | #14 |
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Well Oliver was right.
All the male examples are paintings and female are photographs. Even the Montenegrin example doesnt show carnelian belts, look at this painted postcard (photo)... |
29th October 2017, 05:11 AM | #15 | |
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