Lombok keris fullers and age query

[SidJ]

Hi
Do the narrow carved fullers as shown in this keris indicate the age of it? Ie narrow carved fullers are more recent compared to wider carved fullers? Or is this just a Lombok keris feature? Thanks in advance.

[Sajen]

Hi Sid,

I guess it's more a question of quality or of the smith who worked it IMVHO.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Sid, as Detlef has offered, the form of the sogokan in this keris is indicative of the level of skill that the craftsman who made it possessed.

It is not indicative of age of the keris, nor of geographic location of its origin.

[SidJ]

Thanks for your thoughts. Must've taken some skills to carve those narrow grooves so expertly then.

[A. G. Maisey]

It is very difficult to form an opinion on the excellence or otherwise of any work, or product, if one does not already have an understanding of the rules & standards that must be applied to that particular work or product in order for it to classified as "excellent", or as something that is rather less than excellent.

In the creation of a keris there are certain rules that must be applied to the formation of each part of a keris, and there are standards that must be applied to the work that has been carried out in order to complete the keris.

The standards that are applied to the sogokan of a Surakarta keris demand that in order for the work to be deemed to be of the highest standard the proportionate length and form of the sogokan must be within certain parameters, the individual elements of the sogokan must be executed in a way that is in harmony with the other elements of the keris, the sides of each of the channels of the sogokan must be undercut, & the base of each of those channels must be rounded --- as it was taught to me, they must be rounded "like the bottom of a cooking pot".

But this is Surakarta, and these standards are those that are applied to the work of an empu or pandai keris working at the level expected of a craftsman who produces items for royal use. In other words, these rules & standards are at the peak of excellence.

The sogokan under discussion in this thread is not subject to the same rules & standards, it is a simple keris, the product of a village or lower ranked craftsman, quite adequate for its purpose as either a weapon or an item of dress, but not expected to be a work of art. Of its type it might be thought of as an "everyman's keris", suited to its purpose & not expected to be anything other than this.

The photos shown in this post are of the base of a keris that has been made to Surakarta kraton standard, the sogokan is an example of the quality expected in a high level keris.

The sketch is of the cross section of a correctly executed sogokan, please forgive my inadequacy as an artist, but even though this sketch is decidedly rough, it does convey the form that we expect to find in a well executed sogokan.

[SidJ]

Thanks Alan, this is a perfect, easy to understand exposition of what comprises high quality work. I am grateful indeed. I was taking a bit of the mick out of my keris in my earlier comment.

[A. G. Maisey]

Nothing at all wrong with the keris that began this thread, it is fully fit for purpose, its just that it is not intended as an art work.

The keris in the photos that I just posted was intended to be the best work that the maker was capable of at the time he made it.

[JeffS]

I'm fascinated at the degree of skill that must be needed to carve steel to produce such delicate features as the upper "lip" of the sogokan, as shown in Alan's elevation view sketch, considering the limited space within the sogokan channel and the need to consistently carry that lip for the length of the sogokan.

[A. G. Maisey]

Actually Jeff, carving steel & iron is no more difficult than carving wood, in fact, in some respects it is easier because you have no grain to accommodate. Of course, if we are working with steel we anneal the material before putting tools on it.

But it does take time.

This keris that I have shown is one of the keris that I have made, I welded the forging in Solo, & I carved it back in Australia. I worked with two strikers for 3 days, about 20 or so hours, to do the hot work, then it took around 45 days at 8 to 10 hours a day to carve it.

The sogokan on each side of the blade took 4 days per side.

So yes, although there is a degree of skill involved, the really important thing is understand what needs to be achieved & be prepared to take the necessary time to achieve it.

Incidentally, I used only traditional Javanese tools to carve this keris, I did not use any electric grinders, I used only files, scrapers, cold chisels & a hammer, the files I bought, the scrapers & chisels I made.

[SidJ]

Do modern empus use modern power tools to make high end keris and if so are they considered lesser than those made using traditional hand tools? I've seen videos of dudes carving out keris details with power tools. Seems like it's cheating to me compared to the old ways but maybe it's not.

[A. G. Maisey]

All of the keris makers of the modern era whom I know or know of use modern tools & electric tools for the bench work involved in making a keris.

They are creating art and the current perception is that the end justifies the means.

Keris cost less to make now than they used to cost when traditional tools were used, & this is simply because using the old traditional tools it took a lot longer to do the work.

My teacher, Empu Suparman, used only the traditional tools. I have those tools and they are very simple hand tools.

[SidJ]

It's weird how the western pricing of old handmade keris, specifically everyman keris does not account for the fact that they are handmade. It's clearly a question of supply and demand.

[David]

Originally Posted by SidJ

It's weird how the western pricing of old handmade keris, specifically everyman keris does not account for the fact that they are handmade. It's clearly a question of supply and demand.

I think there is some room for interpretation when someone uses the term "handmade". For many people it simply means that the item was crafted by the artist in a singular and unique manner as opposed to mass produced. For many people a craftsman can indeed use a few power tools in the mix and still consider the item "handmade". Perhaps this is not the original intent of the term, but language does indeed change over the years. But if a keris maker has forged the billet from scratch and then used a few power tools in the process of shaping the keris i would still look at it as a handmade object. Using all non-power tools to make a keris is certainly remarkable, but i'm not convinced that it creates a superior keris in the end. Certainly it takes more time to create, but depending upon what power tools you use and how you use them and how you ultimately finish the keris i am not sure that you will actually see the difference.
Modern keris makers use power tools because it woul be much more expensive for them not to. They could, i suppose, pass that cost in time along to the client, but many potential clients are probably not willing to pay that much extra simply because the keris was made only with hand tools. When we consider the price on antique keris that were indeed made only with hand tools we have to factor in that the keris maker was paid for their work many years ago and are long dead. So the craftsman no longer needs to be compensated for their work and the keris is valued by other criteria such as tangguh, quality of execution, rarity of form, etc.

[Ian]

Hi Alan,

In the following statement you refer to rules that apply to keris-making that might well vary by place and time.

In the creation of a keris there are certain rules that must be applied to the formation of each part of a keris, and there are standards that must be applied to the work that has been carried out in order to complete the keris.

Are these rules written down so that we may access them today, or were they passed on simply by word of mouth and apprenticeship. I would be interested to know, for example, what the length of the sogokan should be in proportion to the overall blade. This is perhaps an overly simple question and again will probably vary by time and place. But I'm interested in how these rules were promulgated.

Regards,

Ian.

[A. G. Maisey]

To the best of my knowledge there is nothing written nor published that sets forth precise measurements , & realistically, there could not be.

I was taught certain angles & measurements, but they were taught as a guide, not as an iron bound rule.

A blade can vary in length, width, angle, the parts of the blade can vary in placement, for example the swell of the edge at front Chest) of the blade and the balancing swell at the back of the blade, ideally these are set at an angle that is in harmony with the other proportions of the blade. These proportions themselves vary according to the classification of a blade & the maker.

However, the overall requirement is that all the characteristics of the blade should be in harmony.

As to how this knowledge was passed on, it was word of mouth from the teacher to his student.

[JeffS]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Actually Jeff, carving steel & iron is no more difficult than carving wood, in fact, in some respects it is easier because you have no grain to accommodate. Of course, if we are working with steel we anneal the material before putting tools on it.

But it does take time.

This keris that I have shown is one of the keris that I have made, I welded the forging in Solo, & I carved it back in Australia. I worked with two strikers for 3 days, about 20 or so hours, to do the hot work, then it took around 45 days at 8 to 10 hours a day to carve it.

The sogokan on each side of the blade took 4 days per side.

So yes, although there is a degree of skill involved, the really important thing is understand what needs to be achieved & be prepared to take the necessary time to achieve it.

Incidentally, I used only traditional Javanese tools to carve this keris, I did not use any electric grinders, I used only files, scrapers, cold chisels & a hammer, the files I bought, the scrapers & chisels I made.

Wow Alan, that is phenomenal. Thank you for sharing.