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Originally Posted by fearn
Hi Jim and all,
Great question. Since I nominated the estoc in another thread as one of the ten weirdest blades in the world, I'd point out that many think it's "the" predecessor of "the" rapier. This is similar to what happened in Japan, when they switched from over-sized field swords to smaller, more manueverable katanas.
Basically, I think an estoc doesn't work well for its allegedly primary job (going through plate armor), but a smaller, lighter version would work pretty well for lighter armor. Good enough for the battlefield? Maybe, but it depends both on the battle and the skill of the fencer.
F
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Excellent point Fearn!!! (no pun intended
)
I hadn't thought of the estoc, also termed the 'tuck'. Actually, in reading through some of A.V.B.Norman's text, he does note that in many cases the full rapier type hilts were mounted with 'tuck' blades, so essentially here were the same basic fully developed hilts carrying blades for specific intent.
Those with heavier tuck form blades for military or heavier combat, and the thin civilian blades for everyday town wear, or of course, the duel.
From what I have understood of the estoc or tuck, it was not intended to pierce plate armor, but to stab through key uncovered locations, or in weak spots or separations. I would imagine that mail covered areas would also be somewhat vulnerable. Being no authority on medieval or Renaissance martial arts, I am only speculating here.
I think the idea of a thrusting weapon such as the rapier evolving from the tuck, which was often the long, narrow blade, with trefoil type cross section in many, to strengthen for rigid thrusting, is an outstanding thought. While I am not aware of this being discussed in the literature that I have checked, it of course is likely in text somewhere as it certainly seems logical.
Pretty impressive thinking there Fearn!!
What I always thought was interesting is these long, narrow bladed swords being mounted under the saddle, while either the arming sword or sabre was at the side of the horseman. One classic example seen is Rembrandt's "The Polish Rider" ( actually Lithuanian nobleman, as found in fascinating research found on this), where the horseman is 'armed to the teeth!', with these two swords, bow and arrow, and battle axe or war hammer (cant recall offhand).
Whatever the case, it does seem that the 'rapiers' actually used in combat in a military sense were typically arming swords with more substantial blades than the civilian types. One of my favorites has always been the Spanish cuphilt, in which by the 18th century remained with the distinct cup hilt but with much heavier blades. The term 'Spanish' is typically used collectively for these cuphilts of more familiar form, as they were certainly well known (and well used! in Portugal), as well as the Italian provincial regions, specifically Brescia, and in fact are even known to some degree in Germany.
Kisak, were any examples of the cuphilt (the deep cup type of 'Spanish' style) known in Sweden? There is so little material available on Swedish weapons, and just wondered.
Thank you Fearn for the excellent observation on the estoc!
All best regards,
Jim