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Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Ms. Baganing, for somebody whose initial posts seemed to promise so much, I find it a great shame that you have reached this point.
You are well and truly out of your depth.
Nagarakertagama , canto 54 , stanza 2 reads:-
1. Staying behind were the wild boars, the black antelopes, the deer, the chevrotains, were the most excellent of them, continuously in fear.
2. The Illustrious Prince's proceeding was , having for consequence a horse, to follow them, noisily running.
3. Mandarins, headmen, clerical officers equally , the honoured ones who had their places with the horses, took part in the hunt.
4. Exterminated were the animals, thrusted , lanced, cut, krissed, dying without a gasp.(---tinumbak iniras kinris pjah tanpagap)
The line I quoted is in a part of the Nag. to do with a hunt. The translation is Pigeaud's, not mine.
Count the number of words in "tinumbak iniras kinris pjah tanpagap" and in "Exterminated were the animals, thrusted , lanced, cut, krissed, dying without a gasp." Isn't the latter too much? I know Nagarakertagama is a kakawin (epic poetry)-- maybe that's the reason why the translator was pretty lax in his translation. As i said there is a malay word aris, meaning edge. Since it is a hunting expedition, kinris or kinaris would also mean put or push to the edge.
If you read the four lines you posted, why would those hunters use krises while hunting when they were on horses. Tumbak (spear) is mentioned. Malay archipelago has a tradition of spear-hunting. Kris-hunting? mmmmm I don't think so. keris was and is not a hunting weapon.
Your knowledge of Javanese is non-existent. You tell us that you do not think that the romanised sound represented by "c" in Javanese is pronounced in a way that would approximate "ch" in the English language. You obviously have never heard Javanese spoken, and cannot read it.
Since your knowledge of javanese is existent, can you properly translate the four lines you posted? As i said, curiga came from khadga. Granting there is no research lapse in phonology, it is possible that aspirated Kh could evolve to ch sound or they were used interchangeably. we see such occurrence in chi and ki.
Please spare us any more of your linguistic analyses. Indonesian is my second language, and in my home I use English, Javanese and Indonesian every day. If you wish to pass comment upon a language, please do yourself a favour, and learn that language first.
Since you know Bahasa Indonesia, is there a traditional word with ch sound? does ch become s in your second language? Is their churiga or even suriga? You check. I will listen.
As to tewek.
I apologise for not providing you with complete information on this word. Had I done so you might have not made yourself appear so ridiculous.
In Old Javanese there are two meanings for the word tewek.
The first is to do with weapons, and I will return to that in a moment.
The second is a word that has an association with time, cause and origin; this meaning does not concern us here, so I will return to the first meaning.
The word tewek, also given as twek, and with tuhuk as a synonym, refers to a pointed weapon. Actually, it is sometimes difficult to determine exactly what weapon it does refer to, but when it is used, it is found in the context where it could be substituted with either keris or pedang, however, on other occasions it is found coupled with pedang or keris, indicating a way in which the pedang or keris is being used.When it is used alone, but it is followed by a verb indicating use of a keris, then clearly it refers to a keris in that context also.
the javanese tewek is from sanskrit tuwek, meaning sword's point. Javanese is mostly Sanskrit and malay. Any weapon with sharp endpoint has a tuwek or twek. In current malay languages, there are words such as tuhuk, tuwuk, tuk, and the filipino tusok-- all are related to sharp point or stabbing. A tusok of a barbecue stick has no relation to kris. twek is part of the sword not a sword. it can also be a part of an arrow or spear.
The word atewek can mean to use a keris, or to stab oneself with a keris, or to have or use a stabbing weapon.
It can also be used with spear, sharpened pencil, and yes, barbecue stick.
A panewek is a stabbing tool.
so is the pantusok. A ballpen can be a pantusok (for stabbing).
Atewek-tewekan means to stab repeatedly.
Tusuk-tusukan is the same thing.
Your understanding of the word tewek is absolutely and utterly incorrect. You are wrong.
mmmmm check the sanskrit tuwek and the other malay words with the same meaning-- sharp point.
When you fail to take note of the work of Pigeaud and Zoetmulder, you make yourself appear to be an unlettered oaf, which I am quite certain you are not, but it does surprise, no, not surprise, amaze me, that any serious anthropologist working in a South East Asian culture could fail to be aware of the stature of these two giants.
Tell that to the postcolonial researchers.
Ms. Baganing, please do restrict yourself to comment on those things you may know something about.
It is clear that you know less than nothing about the Javanese culture, the Javanese language, and the Javanese keris.
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