Ethnographic Arms & Armour - View Single Post - Interesting Tulwar with faint engraved design....Any Ideas ?

Jim McDougall · 21st December 2007, 05:39 PM

WOW! David, incredibly compelling and well researched material!

I can only say I am more than impressed with this information. I really like this kind of follow up in studying a weapon, and the way you make an observation or suggestion, then find and present your support.
As I have noted on the pirate weapons thread, there were indeed Indian vessels in trade as well as even pirate vessels, from India's west coast as you have mentioned.
It seems that some time ago in studying trade routes, I had come across information that suggested that there were certain taboos involved with the sea, and that many Indians basically avoided going to sea. I do know of course that with British presence in India from the opening of the 17th century, and certainly with the East India Co. and the Royal Navy that there was navy there but hadnt thought of a standing Indian navy. It seems that I had read some time ago that Indians often had reservations concerning going to sea, but I cannot recall the source presently. Obviously that cannot be true as further research Indian naval history, as you have shown, is extensive and quite ancient.

The notes you have placed on the widespread occurrence of certain symbols in SEA, Africa and India reveal many interesting possibilities in cultural diffusion, that again seem well supported by the information you have presented here. I have always considered the often subtle connections between Africa and India well established, the weapons of course our main consideration. One case in point is the Hadendoa dagger's hilt, which always make me think of the Indian chilanum and then there is the madu, associated with the haladie, which is established in Sudanese weaponry.

In looking further at this weapon, it seems more of an interpretation of a tulwar, especially the hilt which is heavy and 'thick' in appearance. the vestigial quillons are most interesting, again, particularly with the scallop shell.This motif was well known in Spanish material culture, and of course was seen on various shellguard maritime weapons as well. There seem to be many considerations in place here, as the chakra symbolism you have noted is well placed and as you note, Hindu, and would be most interesting coupled with such European symbolism.

Thank you so much David for this beautifully presented and well supported material. Lets continue!!!

All the best,
Jim

21st December 2007, 05:39 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,100	WOW! David, incredibly compelling and well researched material! I can only say I am more than impressed with this information. I really like this kind of follow up in studying a weapon, and the way you make an observation or suggestion, then find and present your support. As I have noted on the pirate weapons thread, there were indeed Indian vessels in trade as well as even pirate vessels, from India's west coast as you have mentioned. It seems that some time ago in studying trade routes, I had come across information that suggested that there were certain taboos involved with the sea, and that many Indians basically avoided going to sea. I do know of course that with British presence in India from the opening of the 17th century, and certainly with the East India Co. and the Royal Navy that there was navy there but hadnt thought of a standing Indian navy. It seems that I had read some time ago that Indians often had reservations concerning going to sea, but I cannot recall the source presently. Obviously that cannot be true as further research Indian naval history, as you have shown, is extensive and quite ancient. The notes you have placed on the widespread occurrence of certain symbols in SEA, Africa and India reveal many interesting possibilities in cultural diffusion, that again seem well supported by the information you have presented here. I have always considered the often subtle connections between Africa and India well established, the weapons of course our main consideration. One case in point is the Hadendoa dagger's hilt, which always make me think of the Indian chilanum and then there is the madu, associated with the haladie, which is established in Sudanese weaponry. In looking further at this weapon, it seems more of an interpretation of a tulwar, especially the hilt which is heavy and 'thick' in appearance. the vestigial quillons are most interesting, again, particularly with the scallop shell.This motif was well known in Spanish material culture, and of course was seen on various shellguard maritime weapons as well. There seem to be many considerations in place here, as the chakra symbolism you have noted is well placed and as you note, Hindu, and would be most interesting coupled with such European symbolism. Thank you so much David for this beautifully presented and well supported material. Lets continue!!! All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 21st December 2007 at 05:50 PM.